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What is a manifold?

quantamagazine.org

81–90 of 138 posts

Re: What is a manifold?

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the worst examples is Weinberg’s book on GR, which I found nearly unreadable due to the morass of coordinates/indices. So much more painful to learn from than Wald or other mathematically modern treatments of GR.

That's good to know about Wald. I bought a copy to finally get my head round General Relativity, but its brief explanation of Special Relativity right at the start made it clear that I hadn't properly understood that, which led to me getting Gourgoulhon's book. I should be better placed to tackle it now.

Weinberg ≠ Wald. Wald's book is great! (For GR, of course, not SR.)

Re: What is a manifold?

#82
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a tendency among physicists that I find a bit painful when reading their explanations: focusing on how things transform between coordinate systems rather than on the coordinate-independent things that are described by those coordinates. I get that these transformation properties are important for doing actual calculations, but I think they tend to obfuscate explanations. In special relativity, for example, a…

I agree that focusing on Lorentz transformations is the wrong way to approach thinking about special relativity. But It might be the right way to teach it to physics students. The issue is the level of mathematical sophistication one has when a certain concept is introduced. That often defines or at least heavily influences how one thinks about it forever. The basics of special relativity came up in my first year of…

> But It might be the right way to teach it to physics students.

Having studied physics, I would disagree rather strongly. I only really started understanding Special Relativity once I had a clear understanding of the math. (And then it becomes almost trivial.) Those of my fellow class mates, however, who didn't take the time to take those additional (completely optional) math classes, ended up not really understanding it at all. They still got confused by what it all meant, by the different paradoxes, etc.

I saw the same effect when, later, I was a teaching assistant for a General Relativity class.

Re: What is a manifold?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often, if the concept is presented in a more complex way the reason is that the author wants to emphasize and explain how the concept relates in a non-trivial way to some other deep concept; thus you learn a lot more than when the author explains things in the most simple (and shallow) way.

IMO the most common reason why something is presented in a more complex way is that it is badly explained. Of course, most common or not, each case is different.

Also speaks to a lack of understanding on the author's part; people who truly understand some subject are generally much more adept at explaining it in simpler terms – ie without adding complexity beyond the subject's essential complexity

Re: What is a manifold?

#84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to physicists, the standard physicists' definition isn't "a tensor is a thing that transforms like a tensor", it's "a tensor is a mathematical object that transforms in the following way ". When people say "a tensor is a thing that transforms like a tensor" they're using a convenient shorthand for the bit that I put in angle brackets above. My favourite explanation is that "Tensors are the facts of the uni…

> a convenient shorthand for the bit that I put in angle brackets above. Yes, but the "convenient shorthand" only makes sense if you already know what a tensor is. That renders the "definition" useless as an explanation or as pedagogy. It's only useful as a social signal to let others know that you understand what a tensor is (or at least you think you do). > My favourite explanation is that "Tensors are the facts of…

> But I would go with something more like: tensors are a way to represent vectors so that the representation of a given vector is the same no matter what basis (or coordinate system) you choose for your vector space.

That's just incorrect though for a couple of reasons. Firstly, a vector in the sense in which it is used in physics is a rank 1 tensor so it has this transformation behaviour just like other higher order tensors. Secondly the representation is the thing that changes, but the meaning of that representation in the old basis and the new basis is the same. For example, if I take the displacement from me to the top of the Eiffel tower, I can represent that in xyz Cartesian coordinates or in spherical or cylindrical coordinates, or I can measure it relative to an origin that starts with me or at sea level at 0 latlong. The representation will be very different in each case, but the actual displacement from me to the top of the Eiffel tower doesn't change. What has happened is the basis vectors transform in exactly such a way as to make that happen. It's a rank 1 tensor in 3 dimensions because there is a magnitude and one direction (one set of 3 basis vectors) in whatever case.

Now if I want an example of a rank 2 tensor think about a stress tensor. I have a steel beam which is clamped at both ends and a weight is on top of it. This is a tensor field. For every point in the beam there are different forces acting in each direction. So you could imagine the beam as made up of a grid of little rubik's cubes. On each face of each cube you have different net forces. (eg at the middle of the beam the forces are mainly downwards due to gravity, at the ends of the beam the fact that the middle of the beam is bowing downards will lead to the "faces" that point to the middle of the beam to be being pulled towards the middle (transverse to the beam and slightly downwards) whereas the opposite face is pulled in the opposite direction because the ends of the beam are clamped. So I need two sets of basis vectors. One set indicates the "face" experiencing the force, one set indicates the direction of the force. Now just like the vector/rank one tensor case I can represent those in whatever coordinate system I want, and my representation will be different in each case, but will mean the same sets of forces in the same directions and applied to the same directions because both sets of basis vectors will transform to make that true. I would call that a rank 2 tensor field because I would express it as a function from a set of spatial coordinates to a thing which has a magnitude and 2 directions (that's what I think of as the tensor). However I understand physicists and civil engineers and stuff just call the whole thing the stress tensor (not the stress tensor field). I could be wrong.

So what I mean when I talk about the reality of the tensor I mean whatever it is the tensor is expressing in the physical universe (eg the displacement from me to the tower or the stress in the beam). From a mathematical point of view I agree of course, mathematical objects themselves are purely arbitrary and abstract. But if you have a bridge and you want to make sure it doesn't buckle and fall down, the stress tensor in the bridge is a real and important fact of the universe that you need to have a decent understanding of.

Re: What is a manifold?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good to know about Wald. I bought a copy to finally get my head round General Relativity, but its brief explanation of Special Relativity right at the start made it clear that I hadn't properly understood that, which led to me getting Gourgoulhon's book. I should be better placed to tackle it now.

Weinberg ≠ Wald. Wald's book is great! (For GR, of course, not SR.)

Indeed! I meant that it's good to know Wald is mathematically modern and not encrusted with coordinates. Saves me buying another book :-D

(The comment I replied to mentioned both.)

Re: What is a manifold?

#87
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might find it circular reasoning but it is not Um, yes it is. "A foo is an object that transforms as a foo" is a circular definition because it refers to the thing being defined in the definition. That is what "circular definition" means .

To be fair to physicists, the standard physicists' definition isn't "a tensor is a thing that transforms like a tensor", it's "a tensor is a mathematical object that transforms in the following way ". When people say "a tensor is a thing that transforms like a tensor" they're using a convenient shorthand for the bit that I put in angle brackets above. My favourite explanation is that "Tensors are the facts of the uni…

Right, but if you fill in the shorthand there’s no reason to think it’s circular; it’s just a normal definition at that point, albeit one without much motivation.

Re: What is a manifold?

#88
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I've thought about those possibilites, but I really don't know the reasons. > On a sphere or circle, you can get an "almost global" coordinate system by removing the line or point where the coordinates would be ambiguous. Applying cartography to manifolds: Meridians and parallels form a non-ambiguous global coordinate system on a sphere. It's an irregular system because distance between meridians varies with…

The problem is that this global coordinate system isn't a continuous mapping (see the discontinuity of both angular coordinates between 2*pi and 0). Manifolds are required to have an "atlas"[0]: a collection of coordinate systems ("charts") that cover the space and are continuous mappings from open subsets of the underlying topological space to open subsets of Euclidean space, with the overlaps between charts inducin…

This part I don't grasp:

> this global coordinate system isn't a continuous mapping (see the discontinuity of both angular coordinates between 2*pi and 0).

I'm guessing that the issue is that I don't know your definition of 'continuous'.

I believe every point on the planet (sphere, for simplification) has unique corresponding coordinates on the map projection (chart). The only exceptions I can see are, A) surfaces perpendicular to the aspect (perspective) of the projection, which is usually straight down and causes points on exactly vertical surfaces to share coordinates; B) if somehow coordinates are limited in precision or to rational numbers; C) some unusual projection that does it.

> A sphere requires at least two charts for an admissible atlas (say two hemispheres overlapping slightly at the equator, or six hemispheres with no overlaps), otherwise you get discontinuities.

There are cartographic projections that use two charts. Regarding those with one, where is the discontinuity in a Mercator projection? I think when I understand your meaning, it will be clear ...

Re: What is a manifold?

#89
post #5

This is a very informative article about the history of manifolds and their significance. Don’t let the title fool you into this being just a definition. It’s actually much more well written than the majority or articles we usually come across.

Is that really a good article? I thought it was average. It had some big flaws but was probably still informative for readers with no mathematical knowledge in the domain.

For instance, consider the only concrete example in the article: the space of all possible configurations of a double pendulum is a manifold. The author claims it's useful to see it in a manifold, but why? Precisely, why more as a manifold than as a square [O,2π[²?

I also expected more talk about atlases. In simple cases, it's easy to think of a surface as a deformation of a flat shape, so a natural idea is to think of having a map from the plan to the surface. But, even for a simple sphere, most surfaces can't map to a single flat part of the plan, and you need several maps. But how do you handle the parts where the maps overlap? What Riemmann did was defining properties on this relationship between manifold points and maps (which can be countless).

BTW, I know just enough about relativity to deny that "space-time [is] a four-dimensional manifold", at least a Riemmannian manifold. IIRC, the usual term is Minkowski-spacetime.

Re: What is a manifold?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can put a cd shaped object on You're thinking of open sets.

In particular, consider two intersecting planes. You can put all the discs you like on that surface, but it's not a manifold because on the line of intersection it's not locally R2.

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