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Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

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Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#81

Post by googlywoogly »

JCM9 wrote: post #61

There was a time when the L7+ principal IC at Amazon/AWS were rockstars in our industry that represented the pinnacle of one’s career. It’s been sad to watch the talent exodus there on my LinkedIn these last 12+ months as these folks flee the ship for elsewhere. So much experience and knowledge just gone and the bar for L7+ with those left has tumbled off a cliff.

Meh, when I worked at AWS a few years ago, I found to average L7 to be more of a political animal than a very knowledgeable engineer. Many interactions with various L7s where they didn't understand how their own services or common software like browsers worked.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#82

Post by JCM9 »

CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #69
JCM9 wrote: post #61

There was a time when the L7+ principal IC at Amazon/AWS were rockstars in our industry that represented the pinnacle of one’s career. It’s been sad to watch the talent exodus there on my LinkedIn these last 12+ months as these folks flee the ship for elsewhere. So much experience and knowledge just gone and the bar for L7+ with those left has tumbled off a cliff.

> There was a time when the L7+ principal IC at Amazon/AWS were rockstars in our industry that represented the pinnacle of one’s career. I dunno, maybe in Silicon Valley or the US in general, but I think most places outside of that took a much more balanced view of those people even back then, they're just humans after all. Many people experienced working with those "rockstar" engineers outside of Amazon, "rockstars"…

Well “there was a time” when it was more true. Now so not really. With the exodus the bar at Amazon/AWS for taken has fallen quite a bit and in many areas a leading L7+ at Amazon is maybe a B-lister at best elsewhere. Especially in competitive areas like AI and ML where Amazon can no longer attract and retain the best in the market.

See recent press on leaked internal doc about folks at AWS whining that they struggle to secure speaking spots for their folks at AI conferences because nobody sees AWS as having recognized leaders in this space.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#84

Post by trenchpilgrim »

akdev1l wrote: post #77
YuukiRey wrote: post #24

I find it a bit strange when people write about themselves in third person on their own website (see footer and about). Anyway, the article seems very Amazon centric since I have no idea what an L6 or an L7 is. I get that they’re career ladder steps but that’s it. And having testimonials about yourself on your own website… The whole website feels like I clicked on an Ad for a person.

L6 is a senior engineer - typically effecting change and setting direction within a development team (or small group of related teams) L7 is a principal engineer - typically effecting change at org level which will impact many teams

Note that these are Amazon's definitions - at many companies L5 is Senior SWE and L6 is usually a lead or a step towards staff engineer.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#85

Post by mattgreenrocks »

dwb wrote: post #42

Are you an individual contributor if the vast majority of your work isn’t individual contribution? And you’re not a “working-level” IC? God I hate all this big corporate hierarchy terminology. Along with all the pontification about what a “staff” or “principal” or “senior” really is , as if the terms have (or can have!) a stable meaning that we definitely agree upon enough for this all to make sense.

I'd argue not every engineer is necessarily cut out for staff-level positions and responsibilities.

I've always felt staff+ was a bit of a trojan horse on the IC ladder. I understand the role and its importance to be closer to the work. But some companies really seem to love separating you from the work to be done in pursuit of the almighty iMpAcT.

I have seen extremely talented engineers not get their promo to this role because they were "too into coding." And I have advocated for one of them (w/o their knowledge), arguing the project wouldn't exist in it's current form without their technical contributions, and then witness the org retcon their judgment into a staff-level promotion without any significant change in duties.

Makes it hard to take too seriously, honestly. If the purpose of a system is what it does, then it's meant to be a miserly, inertial source of institutional status. One that can get you a lot more money, of course, so play the game as best you can without losing yourself in the process.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#86

Post by [deleted] »

dwb wrote: post #42

Are you an individual contributor if the vast majority of your work isn’t individual contribution? And you’re not a “working-level” IC? God I hate all this big corporate hierarchy terminology. Along with all the pontification about what a “staff” or “principal” or “senior” really is , as if the terms have (or can have!) a stable meaning that we definitely agree upon enough for this all to make sense.

[deleted]

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#87

Post by austin-cheney »

A junior principle is as simple as this:

* Learn new external shit

* Bring that new external shit back to your organization, which requires integration and knowledge transfer

* Inspire people with the new stuff. This means actually talking to people, but its more than that. Its motivating and inspiring people.

That's it. A principle is not a people manager, so there is a lot they don't have to deal with, but they are required to demonstrate and prove their new knowledge in the context of the current organization. This proof can be research papers or MVPs.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#88

Post by CaptainOfCoit »

JCM9 wrote: post #82
CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a time when the L7+ principal IC at Amazon/AWS were rockstars in our industry that represented the pinnacle of one’s career. I dunno, maybe in Silicon Valley or the US in general, but I think most places outside of that took a much more balanced view of those people even back then, they're just humans after all. Many people experienced working with those "rockstar" engineers outside of Amazon, "rockstars"…

Well “there was a time” when it was more true. Now so not really. With the exodus the bar at Amazon/AWS for taken has fallen quite a bit and in many areas a leading L7+ at Amazon is maybe a B-lister at best elsewhere. Especially in competitive areas like AI and ML where Amazon can no longer attract and retain the best in the market. See recent press on leaked internal doc about folks at AWS whining that they struggle…

I'm not sure, just last year a company I contracted for had the same issue, but this time with a person from Google who were trying their hardest to employ "Google-like" processes onto something that really shouldn't have been so complicated.

I think every company that has a "strong culture", no matter what direction, tends to impact people deeply enough that they try to take that with them when they join new places, often creating lots of friction and adding complexity where there shouldn't be any.

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#89

Post by [deleted] »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #80
xoac wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ha, this is true. I thought the post was quite useful beyond getting the author’s name out there. It can get much more navel-gazing than this, such as the posts by 24yos who insist they finally figured out what life is about after working at a startup for 3 years. :)

[deleted]

Re: Advice for new principal tech ICs (i.e., notes to myself)

#90

Post by mattgreenrocks »

nadam wrote: post #27

I find it amusing how people take this 'leveling game' at big companies so seriously. The title they get at these companies become their identity. They live by the rules the company imposes on them. Amusingly almost the opposite of independent thinking, which they are so proud of. What I found during my career is that some people blossom at these big companies, and some, with equal talent cannot really realize themse…

Thank you for writing this. I worry it may be lost on a lot of people on this forum: the need to accrue and gain status is a very first-half-of-life concern for many, and leveling systems are designed to leverage this instinct for the org's behalf. For those who grew up 'gifted,' or accomplished, then it can be hard to not see themselves that way, and the title is tightly coupled to identity at a subconscious level. (Note the disproportionately negative reply to the parent's post.)

I went through a period where I cared a bit too much about an org's leveling system. Not surprisingly, I wasn't promoted, even after giving up some technical work. Eventually, I became really unhappy: I had cut myself off of any work that was fulfilling. It really did feel like I was letting some important part of myself wither away in pursuit of a bullshit hierarchy. I eventually left and joined a startup. I'm slowly remembering how much I like to write programs. Needing to work towards survival is a very tangible goal that has the benefit of making politicking and made-up titles less of a focus...for now.

It's honestly a bit scary how you can lose parts of yourself in these systems. Tread carefully if you aren't 100% into them. Also semi-convinced that some tech middle managers project their own anger/grief over leaving the IC work behind onto those rising through the ranks instead of processing it and finding a sustainable equilibrium.

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