Life as a Service • Hacker News Board

Re: Life as a Service

#81

Post by scottlilly » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:03 PM UTC

mibbitier wrote: post #39

msluyter wrote: post #26

"Even so, I’d be a lot happier paying taxes if there had been a moment where I was given the choice: pay taxes and have these benefits or be left to your own devices." Except that there's no (current, easy) way of excluding you from various public goods that are paid by taxes. Examples include national defense, public spaces like parks, public highways, fire protection (if you live in shared housing or simply close e…

One thing I've never understood, is why a seemingly large number of Americans don't seem to see the similarity between public fire protection, and a public health service. Aren't these two things pretty essential for civilisation?

They don't see the similarity because they are, in fact, different.

If my house catches on fire, and someone doesn't put it out, there is a reasonable chance it will spread to other houses. So it's a societal issue - at least at the local scale. As a societal issue, it makes sense for each member to be forced to pay for it.

If I break my leg, there is no increased chance that my neighbor will break his leg. So it's a personal issue. My neighbor receives no benefit from my leg being repaired, and is not harmed if isn't repaired. So why should he be forced to pay for it?

If you want to say that public health care should exist to provide vaccinations, in order to prevent the spread of disease to others in society, that would be a reasonable argument.

Re: Life as a Service

#82

Post by jonathanleane » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:11 PM UTC

adrianscott wrote: post #80

"I spent some time researching the emigration options. A lot of time actually. And I’ve found out that the place where I live is in spite of all of the above probably one of the best places on earth to be living at the moment. It’s shocking! Half the world or more of it would be more than happy just to trade with me, and they’d be absolutely right." If you can earn a first-world nation without having to live there, s…

Curious as to which countries you were considering, and which one you eventually decided on?

Re: Life as a Service

#83

Post by clneagu » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:13 PM UTC

I'm not seeing anyone complain about the lack of competition for The State. If nothing else why would anyone defend the monopoly of the state? I don't see anyone defending any other monopoly.

Why should I be forced to move elsewhere for better service?

I understand that for now we don't have a better solution but stop defending the fucking monopoly.

Re: Life as a Service

#84

Post by confluence » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:13 PM UTC

I've made up my own law of selfish libertarianism - if you'll indulge me:

> It's only a liability or an entitlement until you yourself need it - then it's a fucking right.

For example being a young white male born into a middle class western family affords you the ability to state "all I need is contract law - everything else is just impinging on my rights and forcing me to take on obligations I don't appear to benefit from - I deserve what I earn."

No health problems + family and state support + faulty logic + short sightedness + sex/race advantages = libertarianism.

Contract law is no more a right than free health care is. But one definitely serves your self interests better. Rights should be based on the veil of ignorance principle - the weak should be protected and the strong should pay for they are one car crash away from welfare.

The lense people should be looking through is that of the weakest in society - not having a geek hissy fit and fantasizing of going Galt because you feel others are holding you back.

If you don't like it - leave. Somalia is lovely this time of year I hear.

Re: Life as a Service

#85

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:19 PM UTC

mibbitier wrote: post #46

wwwtyro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't these two things pretty essential for civilisation? Isn't that also true of food?

Not really the same IMHO. Giving people access to healthcare and fire protection doesn't create any bad incentives. You can't 'use' healthcare for monetary gain. Giving people food, money etc, gives people incentives to not bother working. Also I would say that a national health service ensures that the public is 'healthy'. Which affects us all, as diseases are transmitted etc. Just as the fire services ensures fires…

Giving people food, money etc, gives people incentives to not bother working.

Well yeah, but according to this kind of economistic thinking, paying a guy $40/hour instead of $20/hour encourages him to work half as many hours. Giving people anything for any reason, including as trade/payment, can always be construed as encouraging less work-ethic.

And likewise, withholding anything or inflicting any suffering or punishment can always be construed as encouraging work-ethic.

Re: Life as a Service

#86

Post by tallanvor » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:19 PM UTC

eckyptang wrote: post #36

Some thoughts on this: You have no obligation to conform to these laws at all. You are not born into a contract. A contract is a piece of paper which you can use to wipe your bum with if you wish. You can in theory do what the hell you like. People regularly do. You can kill people, not pay tax, walk over the border of any country and urinate anywhere you like. The only downside is that someone who does subscribe to…

The only thing keeping you from killing people is fear?

I think moral values (no matter where they are derived from) keep people from committing more crimes.

Re: Life as a Service

#87

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:20 PM UTC

confluence wrote: post #84

I've made up my own law of selfish libertarianism - if you'll indulge me: > It's only a liability or an entitlement until you yourself need it - then it's a fucking right. For example being a young white male born into a middle class western family affords you the ability to state "all I need is contract law - everything else is just impinging on my rights and forcing me to take on obligations I don't appear to benef…

Well, contract law and property-title enforcement. Take away private property and Mr. Libertarian isn't going to be so happy that people copied his program-code and took over his factory.

Hence why it's properly called proprietarianism: organizing society with private property as the prime principle.

Re: Life as a Service

#88

Post by rglover » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:20 PM UTC

This article is brilliant. Each and every point Jacques makes is spot-on. I'm sure many will disagree with his stance, but he makes an excellent point. Irrespective of our personal preference, we are effectively locked in to and subordinate of our government and its policies. Any self-respecting human who has contemplated this should be sick to their stomach.

Realize this: we're floating in space. Not one soul on this planet knows why we're here, where we're going, or how we should conduct ourselves. In essence we've been handed our own "Gary's Mod" and yet we've resolved to have infinite and mostly useless structure. I'm not praising anarchy, but like what was mentioned in this piece, I should have a choice.

Re: Life as a Service

#89

Post by eckyptang » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:26 PM UTC

tallanvor wrote: post #86

eckyptang wrote: post #36

Some thoughts on this: You have no obligation to conform to these laws at all. You are not born into a contract. A contract is a piece of paper which you can use to wipe your bum with if you wish. You can in theory do what the hell you like. People regularly do. You can kill people, not pay tax, walk over the border of any country and urinate anywhere you like. The only downside is that someone who does subscribe to…

The only thing keeping you from killing people is fear? I think moral values (no matter where they are derived from) keep people from committing more crimes.

Considering morality is founded on a fear of someone doing to you what you did to them, then yes.

This is a fairly basic interpretation of the golden rule but it stands up to the majority of counterpoints.

Re: Life as a Service

#90

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:26 PM UTC

mibbitier wrote: post #39

msluyter wrote: post #26

"Even so, I’d be a lot happier paying taxes if there had been a moment where I was given the choice: pay taxes and have these benefits or be left to your own devices." Except that there's no (current, easy) way of excluding you from various public goods that are paid by taxes. Examples include national defense, public spaces like parks, public highways, fire protection (if you live in shared housing or simply close e…

One thing I've never understood, is why a seemingly large number of Americans don't seem to see the similarity between public fire protection, and a public health service. Aren't these two things pretty essential for civilisation?

Epidemic prevention certainly is, in the same way fire protection is - both a fire and an epidemic can rage out of control and kill lots of people. They are public goods because they have large positive externalities.

Both are also dirt cheap (i.e., single-digit percentages of government spending) and very few people oppose their public provision. So why bring them up?