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The App Store was always authoritarian

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Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#81

Post by troupo »

slightlyoff wrote: post #50
troupo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's something we create organically inside communities of shared democratic commitments (e.g., Blink) Blink is bot a "shared democratic community". As evidenced by the amount of Chrome-only APIs pushed into it. And you were very okay and completely silent about it while you worked there, and likely pushed quite a few of your own. Well, you're still fine with it as you call it "a community of democratic commitments…

[flagged]

Yes, you post this every time as if that absolves Chrome, or you, of shipping "standards" against objections from both Mozilla and Apple, or before consensus on APIs and capabilities, or before even having a spec that others can implement.

To quote your article: "every vendor always ships "whatever it wants."

Indeed, and Chrome ships constantly, recklessly and with hardly a lip service to the standards process.

Your article does have its funny moments. "Blink's rigorous launch process frequently prevents unvalidated designs from shipping". Lol. Lmao even.

You, more than most other people, should know that once something is shipped, it stays in the platform forever, and it's very hard to change something that is already shipped. Yet not only Chrome ships features all the time, its team gleefully announced those features as fait accompli standards on web.dev, and then developers including you demand that other browsers implement these features.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#82

Post by immibis »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #12

Agreed, Alex... but the Chrome team is not different . Nor is Edge. All three companies are willing to use all of their products for authoritarian control. The web platform feels no less captured than the app market.

All companies are authoritarian, and competition ensures they can't get very far. Unfortunately we've been dismantling competition for decades

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#83

Post by DanOpcode »

john01dav wrote: post #27
Mindwipe wrote: post #2

Completely correct. The only way to ensure this doesn't happen is to criminalise device manufacturers being in charge of what software runs on their devices.

It's not "their devices". I recently bought a house and the previous owner kept trying to influence what I did with it, and everyone -- even those in government who ultimately had to help enforce my ownership rights -- agreed with me that that was ridiculous and intolerable. When Apple, Samsung, or whoever else sells something it isn't their's anymore! They have no right to continued involvement in it! That's how sel…

What about warranty?

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#84

Post by brazukadev »

dewey wrote: post #75
brazukadev wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not smart enough and need a big tech company to lead your life you can do it by yourself without thinking it's okay to subject the whole world to this duopoly.

You can very easily turn that argument around and say: if you are smart enough, use an operating system that doesn't babysit you and switch to Linux which is a very valid option.

No, it is not a valid option when you want to restrict companies from having such a power. The world does not spin around you or me.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#85

Post by jiggawatts »

surgical_fire wrote: post #51
jiggawatts wrote: post #35

I just want to remind people that the alternative to authority is anarchy. No, not the utopian kind, Star Trek style. Think: Mad Max. I’m trying to communicate with relatives of my partner while on holiday. We have iPhones, they all have Androids. We asked them to install “ChatGPT” because its voice mode is shockingly good at near-real-time translation. When I type “ChatGPT” into the Apple App Store, the top hit is……

This is a shockingly bad argument. The place where your uncle in law was finding scam apps was not some obscure website where he was downloading scam APKs. It was a centralized store from Google, just a poorly managed one. I, for that matter, use Android. Not out of love for Google (much to the opposite, I despise them and everything they do), but out of a lack of alternative. I do value the freedom to at least use a…

> out of a lack of alternative.

I always wonder at the logic that leads the these kinds of statements. What alternate universe do people come from… without Apple?

I regularly see a similar attitude, most often here, that Microsoft and Azure don’t even exist.

Apple and Microsoft are imperfect, sure. But they do exist, and they’re perfectly viable options for … checks notes … billions upon billions of people.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#86

Post by rendall »

> ...and Apple is all but refusing, playing games to prevent powerful and safe iOS browsers and the powerful web applications they facilitate. Web applications that can challenge the App Store.

I have been patronized about this for years, but I still maintain that Jobs' opposition to Flash was its conflict with the App Store, and not that it was a security problem as he and his flying monkeys insisted.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#87

Post by surgical_fire »

jiggawatts wrote: post #85
surgical_fire wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a shockingly bad argument. The place where your uncle in law was finding scam apps was not some obscure website where he was downloading scam APKs. It was a centralized store from Google, just a poorly managed one. I, for that matter, use Android. Not out of love for Google (much to the opposite, I despise them and everything they do), but out of a lack of alternative. I do value the freedom to at least use a…

> out of a lack of alternative. I always wonder at the logic that leads the these kinds of statements. What alternate universe do people come from… without Apple? I regularly see a similar attitude, most often here , that Microsoft and Azure don’t even exist. Apple and Microsoft are imperfect, sure. But they do exist , and they’re perfectly viable options for … checks notes … billions upon billions of people.

> I always wonder at the logic that leads the these kinds of statements. What alternate universe do people come from… without Apple?

Apple is not an alternative for my needs.

> Apple and Microsoft are imperfect, sure. But they do exist, and they’re perfectly viable options for … checks notes … billions upon billions of people.

There is no Microsoft smartphone OS (and back when one existed, it was a piece of turd).

I know that there is are Linux smartphones. Unfortunately many apps I need do not support that.

Currently, my options are limited to Lineage OS. Graphene or e/OS may be a possibility once I switch cell phones again.

As much as I despise Google, that sentiment pales in comparison to my hatred and disgust for anything Apple. Having to use their awful laptops for work is enough annoyance.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#88

Post by fnwbr »

clutter55561 wrote: post #41

Well written, but its starting point seems to be “Apple used to be force for good”. — It is a corporation. It wants your money. This is not new. This is not any different from Lilly (Mounjaro), or Google, or any other, er… corporation. The idea that a CEO will stand up to his democratically elected dictator is absurd. Why should he, when the dictator is merely implementing the policies he said he would during the cam…

> Because many people hold Apple to higher standards, that is why.

Not really; I'd have the same expectation of any other individual or company of the given size.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#89

Post by jauntywundrkind »

willtemperley wrote: post #34

> Google is not creating moral distance between itself and Apple I laughed out loud at this. Google lost two antitrust lawsuits this year alone.

One of which only existed because Android was open source in the first place (but the app store was not). Something far more generous than most companies.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#90

Post by jauntywundrkind »

dewey wrote: post #44
mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of options in between "one company has total dictatorial control over an app store" and "it's a free for all of downloading software willy nilly off the internet".

The DMA in EU has alternate app stores being created, for example. That's some kind of point in between these two. But it still feels like if that's your only option, you'll get ICEBlock blocked in those markets too in many cases.

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