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"Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

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Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship. And in our modern world, universities are still the best place for such apprenticeship. Not the ones per Mark Trevor's words ( https://marktarver.com/professor.html ), of course, but a self-respecting university will train their students with progressively challenging and practical assignments. We started with implement…

I'm self-taught and did pretty much all of those things. All it took was reading the docs.

I downvoted you because you are exceptional but the rest of the world is not. Most people benefit from traditional education, software engineering is not different.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#82
post #38

Minor part of the article, but the thing about "tutorial Hell" is very true: > Students would watch (or fall asleep to) 6-hour videos, code along in their own editors, feel like they got it, and then freeze up the moment they had to write anything from scratch. Classic tutorial hell. This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship . You, the junior, tag along a senior.…

> This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship. And in our modern world, universities are still the best place for such apprenticeship. Not the ones per Mark Trevor's words ( https://marktarver.com/professor.html ), of course, but a self-respecting university will train their students with progressively challenging and practical assignments. We started with implement…

> And in our modern world, universities are still the best place for such apprenticeship.

I spent a good portion of my life in Universities -- and went as far as one can go in terms of educational credentials and taught at the university level -- and I cannot disagree more.

Universities produce job skills incidentally, if at all. It's simply not their goal [1]. Even today, at the best CS programs in the country, it's possible to get a degree and still not be better than a very junior engineer at a software company (and quite a few graduates are worse).

> We started with implementing simple data structures and algorithms and solving simple puzzles all the way to implementing toy OSes, databases, persistent data structures, compilers, CPUs, discrete simulations, machine learning models.

This was not my experience, nor is it what I have seen in most university graduates. It's still quite possible for a CS grad to get a degree having only theoretical knowledge in these topics, and no actual ability to write code.

This leaves open the question of where "the best place" is to learn as-practiced programming [2], but I tend to agree with the root commenter that the best programmers come up through a de facto apprenticeship system, even if most of them spend time in universities along the way.

[1] Their goal is to produce professors. You may not realize this if you only went as far as the undergraduate diploma, but that is mostly what academics know, and so it is what they teach. The difference between the "best" CS programs and the others is that they have some professors with actual industry experience, but even then, most of them are academics through and through.

[2] Code academies suck in their own ways.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#83
post #38

Minor part of the article, but the thing about "tutorial Hell" is very true: > Students would watch (or fall asleep to) 6-hour videos, code along in their own editors, feel like they got it, and then freeze up the moment they had to write anything from scratch. Classic tutorial hell. This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship . You, the junior, tag along a senior.…

You learn by doing and thinking. Not reading and watching. Pure and simple.

Reading and watching fills your brain with whats possible

Doing and thinking solidifies it, teaches you to use the things you've read about

You need both

When I'm learning something new I like to skim a bunch of content upfront to get an idea of what's there

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#84
post #38

Minor part of the article, but the thing about "tutorial Hell" is very true: > Students would watch (or fall asleep to) 6-hour videos, code along in their own editors, feel like they got it, and then freeze up the moment they had to write anything from scratch. Classic tutorial hell. This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship . You, the junior, tag along a senior.…

Tech has the issue where any sort of gatekeeping is seen as bad because people in the field have so much hubris they think they can never be replaced and there has been a coordinated effort by capital to flood the field with labor to drive salaries down. You could go further and say the complete lack of professional standards is why we have this leetcode humiliation ritual interview process which has nothing to do with the actual job has become the gatekeeper.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#85
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm self-taught and did pretty much all of those things. All it took was reading the docs.

I downvoted you because you are exceptional but the rest of the world is not. Most people benefit from traditional education, software engineering is not different.

BS. Everything I learned from college was me anki and youtube. Lectures were wasting me time from actually studying. Most people I talked to they said. They didn't follow the lecturer at all just sat there like me for the attendence. There is no reason why we should continue to have mandatory lectures when you can just record them like Gilbert Strang did.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How the heck are we gonna deal with it when we cannot use LLMs for sanity checking LLM code? Unit testing. LLM's are very good at writing tests and writing code that is testable (as long as you ask it), and if you just check that the tests are actually calling the code and doing so with all the obvious edge cases and that the results are correct, that's actually quite fast to review -- faster than reviewing the cod…

The only way this might work (IMO) is writing the tests yourself (but of course, this requires you to plan and design very meticulously in advance) and doing some kind of “blind TDD” where the LLM is not able to see the tests, only run them and act on the results. Even then, I’ve had Claude (Opus 4.1) bypass tests by hardcoding conditions as it found them so I’d say reliability for this method is not 100%. Having the…

I’ve been saying this for years now: you can’t avoid communicating what you want a computer to do. The specific requirements have to be made somewhere.

Inferring intent from plain english prompts and context is a powerful way for computers to guess what you want from underspecified requirements, but the problem of defining what you want specifically always requires you to convey some irreducible amount of information. Whether it’s code, highly specific plain english, or detailed tests, if you care about correctness they all basically converge to the same thing and the same amount of work.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#87

Organizations now generate 10x the amount of code, because everyone can do it. But we have exactly the same number of reviewers. How the heck are we gonna deal with it when we cannot use LLMs for sanity checking LLM code? Like literally yesterday I had a not-technical person who used codex to build an optimization algorithm, and due to the momentum it gained I was asked to “fix the rough edges and help with scaling”.…

The same way that we dealt with Excel programming. Ignore it until it blows up, then spend hundreds of thousands trying to fix it before the company goes bankrupt.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#88
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm self-taught and did pretty much all of those things. All it took was reading the docs.

I downvoted you because you are exceptional but the rest of the world is not. Most people benefit from traditional education, software engineering is not different.

its not THAT exceptional. I myself know several people who bootstrapped themselves into being descent software engineers. Traditional education is certainly fine for some people but its not the only way for the masses to learn. whats missing is the discipline of pushing yourself when you have no immediate extrinsic motivation.

You might have had a point a few decades ago when the information itself was difficult to fine but with the internet and online courses, its easier than ever to teach yourself in a "nontraditional" setting.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#89

Disclaimer: I use Zed Pro and GPT daily to code. I have been coding for money since 1989. I view the rise of these tools and particularly efficacy in programming as an indictment against modern programming. The modern web is both amazing and horrific. If bureaucratic is "using or connected with many complicated rules and ways of doing things" (Britannica), then modern programming may be the ultimate poster child. Sur…

A lot what has been heaped upon us is accidental complexity in Brook‘s silber bullet sense. LLM‘s cut straight through it, collapsing the silos of knowledge (and eco systems) build around languages and frameworks.

Re: "Vibe code hell" has replaced "tutorial hell" in coding education

#90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why, across history, the tried and true method of learning a craft is an apprenticeship. And in our modern world, universities are still the best place for such apprenticeship. Not the ones per Mark Trevor's words ( https://marktarver.com/professor.html ), of course, but a self-respecting university will train their students with progressively challenging and practical assignments. We started with implement…

> And in our modern world, universities are still the best place for such apprenticeship. I spent a good portion of my life in Universities -- and went as far as one can go in terms of educational credentials and taught at the university level -- and I cannot disagree more. Universities produce job skills incidentally , if at all. It's simply not their goal [1]. Even today, at the best CS programs in the country, it'…

> Universities produce job skills incidentally, if at all. It's simply not their goal [1]. Even today, at the best CS programs in the country, it's possible to get a degree and still not be better than a very junior engineer at a software company (and quite a few graduates are worse).

Having been self taught in both software and electrical engineering, I’ve experienced a lot of this.

In EE, it’s amazing how many graduates come into the job without ever having used Altium/KiCAD/Cadence for a nontrivial project or who can give you a very precise definition of impedance but don’t know how to break out an engineering calculator to set design rules for impedance controlled differential pairs. Or worse yet, people who can give you all the theory of switching model power supply but can’t read datasheets and select parts in practice.

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