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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#81

Post by dylan604 »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #11
ZeroConcerns wrote: post #3

OK, really hot take here: -ChatControl, as it is currently defined, is not going to happen, because it's absolutely stupid and would make impossible, amongst other things, online banking -Yet, there is a growing and legitimate demand for lawful interception of 'chat' services. I mean, "sure, your bank account got emptied, but we can't look into that because it happened via Signal" just isn't a good look -So, somethin…

Without confidential and private spaces, how in the world can relational trust be cultivated? And how in the world can we have safety if relational trust is suffocated before it can even take root? Please use your imagination! Those aren't the only options if we embrace trust as essential rather than looking at any need for it as a liability.

why do you think they want relation trust. unless you mean trusting that if you go against the man, the man will come for you. maybe it would be better for s/trust/fear/

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#82

Post by lukan »

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #41
lukan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I want police to be able to obtain a judicial order to intercept, for a limited time, in cleartext, the (Signal chats, or whatever other encrypted communications) of identified parties reasonably suspected to be involved with criminal activity." They already have that in most (?) jurisdictions by now. With a warrant, they can install a virus on the device that will then do targeted surveillance. ChatControl is bad,…

> With a warrant, they can install a virus on the device that will then do targeted surveillance Yeah, and that sponsors an entire malware industry! I don't really know how I can make my position any clearer, but... -Malware: bad! -ChatControl (encryption backdoors): bad! -Inability to do any kind of law enforcement involving "the Internet": double-plus bad! -Enforcement of existing lawful interception laws in the fa…

"I don't really know how I can make my position any clearer, but..."

You could state in plain words what do you propose as an alternative.

I read what you wrote, but have no idea what you propose.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#83

Post by thewebguyd »

shevy-java wrote: post #45

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

> I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

That's the problem with these proposed laws.

We (privacy advocates) have to constantly fight and win over and over again. The nations that want this mass spying only have to win once.

We need a way to permanently stop these proposals once defeated the first time so that they cannot just continue to try over and over again until it passes.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#84

Post by 2pEXgD0fZ5cF »

fsflover wrote: post #40
layer8 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t expect the general topic to become “finally settled” within our lifetime.

Unless there's a law ensuring our freedoms.

Chat control very likely violates at least german law, if not EU law too already. As experts as well as the ministry of justice of the previous government in germany have pointed out time and time again.

Yet still that was never enough for a clear and definitive "no".

It is very likely that the people in favor of this would still try to push it through, or let that happen. They know that the legal battle afterwards to determine its unlawfulness would take years.

And during that time it could already be put it place. And once the legal battle is over (and likely won) severe damage is done and they could still adapt the law or just offer companies to continue doing this "voluntarily". And personally I wouldn't count on Apple, Google, or Facebook to roll this back quickly in that case once they've put it into place.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#85

Post by zarzavat »

sfdlkj3jk342a wrote: post #35
jMyles wrote: post #26

A simple way to end the discussion: No matter what the state says, or what legislatures pass what laws, we're going to continue to live out our right to general purpose computing, including sending only what we choose to send over the wire, and encrypting content as we see fit. Now let's talk about something else.

That works until the government and media successfully push the narrative to the public that anyone using encryption is supporting child molesters and terrorists.

This may work on boomers but for younger people 90% of the use of a phone is for messaging and obviously you don't want anyone listening in to your private conversations especially for sexting.

People are not going to stop sending each other their boobs or penii, and while that remains the case, encrypted messaging will thrive.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#87

Post by dylan604 »

lxgr wrote: post #78
dylan604 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll be okay as long as you print them on a t-shirt

Yep, good thing nobody has ever been jailed for wearing a t-shirt with the wrong slogan.

you missed the reference. as a history lesson, the deCSS code was written on a t-shirt and was deemed acceptable. having the deCSS compiled as an executable was deemed not acceptable.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#88

Post by LudwigNagasena »

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #37
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hot take: removing protections guaranteed by constitution should require modification of the constitution. There is already a "temporary" European regulation [1] that is in violation of the German constitution [2]. CSAR would be a further erosion of the legal foundation. Americans were happy when their federal laws that restrict marijuana use were simply ignored by executive fiat without proper processes, well, the…

> A hot take: removing protections guaranteed by constitution Lawful intercept laws exist in most, if not all, EU countries. It's just that super-national overlay services like Signal don't entirely fall within the framework of those. So, there is now a choice: expand interception powers indefinitely (a.k.a. ChatControl, which, to make things crystal-clear, I'm 100% against), or bring new services into the fold of ex…

No existing legislation requires proactive interception of mail, physical or electronic. Bringing new services into the fold of existing legislation would mean forbidding any proactive scanning by civilians and forbidding such scanning by authorities without a warrant or court order.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#89

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

JohnLocke4 wrote: post #68
lxgr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think local mesh networks would remain legal?

It won't but luckily no government is powerful enough to govern math and therefore cryptography. Mathematics is more of a liberator than the second amendment in this respect. Physical hardware can be controlled, yes. Decentralization and obfuscation similar to TOR is probably needed here.

¿Por qué no los dos?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#90

Post by tavavex »

layer8 wrote: post #32
thevillagechief wrote: post #18

This rollercoaster is wearing me out. I hope this finally settles it!

I wouldn’t expect the general topic to become “finally settled” within our lifetime.

I expect it to become settled, just not in the way we want it.

Sure, there is the rollercoaster, ups and downs, small wins and losses going on all the time. But look at the general trends - these freedoms that we enjoyed are by and large being chipped away, it's all trending down, worldwide. It's two steps back, one step forward. Maybe CC doesn't get put in place this particular time, but they will ram it through eventually, at some point the right angle will be found to make the right people vote for it. Then the battleground will move onto something even more egregious, and so on. I'm not seeing why there would be a sudden reversal of this trend in the coming decades.

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