Email immutability matters more in a world with AI • Hacker News Board

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#81

Post by andrewflnr » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:02 PM UTC

WrongOnInternet wrote: post #76

instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

The problem with this approach is that it is easily bypassed. Simply point your camera at a high quality monitor playing an AI generated video, and there you go, and authenticated AI video. In the future, video evidence is going to be as convincing as it was for 99.9999...% of human history. We survived with out it in the past. We'll survive without it in the future.

I doubt it will be that easy to bypass. A fake would still have to withstand pixel-level analysis on the level of methods that already detect tampering in regular video. For one thing, that will have to be a very high quality monitor indeed to leave no detectable trace of e.g. moire patterns.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#82

Post by deadbabe » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:02 PM UTC

canadiantim wrote: post #80

WrongOnInternet wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this approach is that it is easily bypassed. Simply point your camera at a high quality monitor playing an AI generated video, and there you go, and authenticated AI video. In the future, video evidence is going to be as convincing as it was for 99.9999...% of human history. We survived with out it in the past. We'll survive without it in the future.

What does it mean for the court system though, what happens to video and image evidence?

That is for the jury to decide. If they think the evidence is fabricated in some way, they will have reasonable doubt.

Lawyers must carefully pick jurors depending on how susceptible they may be to AI manipulation.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#83

Post by novemp » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:04 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #22

Night_Thastus wrote: post #7

"An email is your copy, and the sender can’t revise it later." Sort of. They can't change plain text, but modern emails often include vast swaths of remote content. When you open the message, it retrieves the relevant assets directly from whoever sent the email. That remote content is not permanently stored . It's cached for a bit and will not be re-used if the email is opened months or years later. If those assets d…

When it's a silly marketing email - sure. But you'd be surprised how hard you need to work as a sender to ensure that your content will render correctly if your business is actually to deliver information via email. Remote content is ignored by default by almost all modern email clients (since developers got sneaky and started using it for tracking) so a good email with rich content is usually embedding all that cont…

You don't have to work hard at all if you send plain text.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#84

Post by jjk7 » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:05 PM UTC

canadiantim wrote: post #80

WrongOnInternet wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this approach is that it is easily bypassed. Simply point your camera at a high quality monitor playing an AI generated video, and there you go, and authenticated AI video. In the future, video evidence is going to be as convincing as it was for 99.9999...% of human history. We survived with out it in the past. We'll survive without it in the future.

What does it mean for the court system though, what happens to video and image evidence?

Can AV evidence not be faked without AI tools?

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#85

Post by throwaway_0501 » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:06 PM UTC

Buried lede: Fastmail is using AI-generated code / words / decision-making systems, just like everyone else and following the same meaningless "principles" as everyone else.

> For our staff, we encourage understanding the tools that exist in the world, and how to use them safely. Our policy makes it clear that any use of tools, including tools with AI in them, must follow clear privacy-preserving principles:

    Data Protection: All data protection, confidentiality, and privacy policies must be followed (our vendors for things like anti-abuse and support are moving towards using AI for translation, categorization, abuse detection – and we are ensuring that their policies continue to provide protection for our customers)

    Accountability for work: Any AI generated writing or code must be reviewed and understood by a human being, and go through our regular second-set-of-eyes processes before being used

    Bias awareness: Actively look for biases or hallucinations in AI output

    Human authority: Always have a path for appeal to a human from any decision that is made by automated tools

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#86

Post by akkartik » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:07 PM UTC

Email is only part of my electronic memory. Over time it's become more important to me to maintain my own copies of my memory on devices I control. The forms and formats are many, and they all need a commitment to maintain control. So yes, use email over more mutable media. And avoid remotely mutable extensions to emails. And keep a local copy of your email. And maintain date-stamped archives of stuff you work on, and keep your codebases easy to run from any point in their history, and write good notes. Constant vigilance.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#87

Post by QuantumNomad_ » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:09 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #75

instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

I don't think this would accomplish anything. For one thing, quite a bit of misinformation these days comes from official government sources that can just compel the manufacturers to turn over authentic signing keys. Remember that Trump just posted an AI-generated video of himself shilling medbeds; when it was pointed out as AI-generated, he deleted it. If Truth Social checked the cryptographic signature, he'd order…

> those screens will exist

It’s already possible. See the Stagecraft studio they built for the production of TV series The Mandalorian.

> shooting the series on a stage surrounded by massive LED walls displaying dynamic digital sets, with the ability to react to and manipulate this digital content in real time during live production

https://www.unrealengine.com/fr/blog/forging-new-paths-for-f...

> The StageCraft process involves shooting live-action actors and sets surrounded by large, very high-definition LED video walls. These walls display computer-generated imagery backdrops, once traditionally composited primarily in post-production after shooting with chroma key screens. These facilities are known as "volumes". When shooting, the production team is able to realign the background instantly based on moving camera positions. The entire CGI background can be manipulated in real-time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StageCraft

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#88

Post by dghlsakjg » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:13 PM UTC

canadiantim wrote: post #80

WrongOnInternet wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this approach is that it is easily bypassed. Simply point your camera at a high quality monitor playing an AI generated video, and there you go, and authenticated AI video. In the future, video evidence is going to be as convincing as it was for 99.9999...% of human history. We survived with out it in the past. We'll survive without it in the future.

What does it mean for the court system though, what happens to video and image evidence?

We have been able to manipulate legal documents for 100s of years. We have been able to manipulate images for over 100 years. We have been able to manipulate images on any computer with a few hours of training for for 30+ years. We have been able to manipulate videos with training for 20+ years.

It is an order of magnitude easier now (likely as easy as documents have been to manipulate for 30ish years now). However, this is not a new problem, courts have always had to deal with manipulated evidence.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#89

Post by witrak » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:24 PM UTC

Cu3PO42 wrote: post #60

drnick1 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a myth. I self-host email and don't have deliverability issues. What matters is domain age, IP, and compliance with DKIM/DMARC.

Is it? Last time I tried to self-host my email I did. I had DKIM, DMARC and SPF set up correctly as verified by multiple sites, but I couldnt't get reliable delivery to any Microsoft-hopsted mailboxes. Every other provider I tested was perfectly happy with my mail, unfortunately MS is too big a provider to ignore them. > What matters is domain age, IP, and compliance with DKIM/DMARC. Maybe it was my IP, but I cycled…

>> What matters is domain age, IP, and compliance with DKIM/DMARC.

>Maybe it was my IP, but I cycled a few with my hosting provider and none of them made a difference. If I am unable to reliable obtain a 'trusted' IP, what good does it do?

That's true. I have a Class C IP range and a domain registered for 30 years and yet Gmail still started ignoring my email server a couple of years ago...

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#90

Post by AtlasBarfed » Thu, Oct 02, 2025, 9:28 PM UTC

Where's the AI to address the number one issue I have with email?

If you count for automatically categorized Bayesian spam, it's about 99% noise.

That's one of the things that sucks about the current AI. Being employed by people that that are categorically opposed to using it to enhance privacy and filter advertising.