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Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

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Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#81

I just want normal buttons and dials back. Not time-based capacitance buttons that take 5.02 seconds to activate, not 5.0 seconds; nor free-spinning encoder wheels that mandate you give it a jiggle before the washer does anything, even if it's already on the setting you want. I want kachunk-a-chunk back first. Then we can decide if it needs smarts.

Most low end appliances have buttons and dials as the interface to the "will last long enough to not be available when it breaks" computer that the fancy touchscreen stuff uses.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#82
post #50

I just want normal buttons and dials back. Not time-based capacitance buttons that take 5.02 seconds to activate, not 5.0 seconds; nor free-spinning encoder wheels that mandate you give it a jiggle before the washer does anything, even if it's already on the setting you want. I want kachunk-a-chunk back first. Then we can decide if it needs smarts.

The problem with kerchunk-a-wheels and real pushbuttons (and the not-smarts they imply) is that they're expensive. They're more expensive (and more failure-prone) than the rotary encoders, mush-buttons, and brain-boxes that replaced them. But one cool part about things like motorized kerchunk-a-wheels is that, upon failure, a motivated person on Gilligan's Island can often mend them back into service with a screwdriv…

>> The problem with kerchunk-a-wheels and real pushbuttons (and the not-smarts they imply) is that they're expensive

However, if you go to the store, you'll see washing machines with old knobs much cheaper than machines with new fancy screens.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#83
post #50

I just want normal buttons and dials back. Not time-based capacitance buttons that take 5.02 seconds to activate, not 5.0 seconds; nor free-spinning encoder wheels that mandate you give it a jiggle before the washer does anything, even if it's already on the setting you want. I want kachunk-a-chunk back first. Then we can decide if it needs smarts.

The problem with kerchunk-a-wheels and real pushbuttons (and the not-smarts they imply) is that they're expensive. They're more expensive (and more failure-prone) than the rotary encoders, mush-buttons, and brain-boxes that replaced them. But one cool part about things like motorized kerchunk-a-wheels is that, upon failure, a motivated person on Gilligan's Island can often mend them back into service with a screwdriv…

They're not expensive, they're inefficient in terms of water use. Which means they are a non-starter for national retail in the US because there are a few desert states that have captured federal regulation which mandate ever decreasing water use because that's what those desert states want.

Some poor schmuck in "basically Vietnam" climate part of Arkanas has to go to work and fix waste plumbing that's full of deposits from low flow urinals, get home, throw his clothes in a washer that won't clean them because it's trying to sense the bare minimum water it can use (which is too little for anyone who does work outside an office) and then shower under a POS low flow shower head, all so some jerks in the desert can feel like they're saving the planet.

State water situations are diverse. This is a textbook example of something that should not be regulated federally.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#84
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with kerchunk-a-wheels and real pushbuttons (and the not-smarts they imply) is that they're expensive. They're more expensive (and more failure-prone) than the rotary encoders, mush-buttons, and brain-boxes that replaced them. But one cool part about things like motorized kerchunk-a-wheels is that, upon failure, a motivated person on Gilligan's Island can often mend them back into service with a screwdriv…

They're not expensive, they're inefficient in terms of water use. Which means they are a non-starter for national retail in the US because there are a few desert states that have captured federal regulation which mandate ever decreasing water use because that's what those desert states want. Some poor schmuck in "basically Vietnam" climate part of Arkanas has to go to work and fix waste plumbing that's full of deposi…

[dead]

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#85
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to understand why companies can't build things to last, use real buttons, provide parts for servicing at cost, add local APIs for anything "smart", forgo any secondary income streams (eg screens showing ads), and still make a profit . It isn't that hard to understand. They can. They just choose not to, because success isn't defined by profits anymore. It's now defined by profit growth . The only ethical w…

> It isn't that hard to understand. They can. What's hard to to understand is how we allow them. How the market hasn't seen an opening; why someone else hasn't started making machines to fill these niches. There are so many pro-consumer ideas (I've only listed a few) that a company could seize upon to market themselves. And unlike pocket consumer-electronics, there's little barrier to entry. You don't need to reinven…

You're quite right there. I've wondered those myself. Here are some theories.

> What's hard to to understand is how we allow them.

I think that this has to do with two factors - motivation and organization. Ordinary people are not motivated enough to seek long term affordability and market health. They are easily tempted by anything convenient and cheap (in the short term). That's how big chains and big online shops were able to out-compete brick and mortar and mom and pop shops. Once the competition is gone, the big shops show their true colors and hold the market hostage to extract as much revenue as possible. BigCos can do this because they're motivated strongly by the promise of great profits to seek long term strategies like this (as delayed gratification). Meanwhile the consumers make short term gains and accumulate massive long term losses!

The second factor is organization. Consumers hardly ever organize to make a concerted effort to force the hand of big companies. For example, let's assume that someone is marketing a simple, good quality and long-lasting washing machine. The only catch is that it's pricier than the other 'smart washing machines' because of the lower scale of production. Assume that the people organized together and decided to buy only that washing machine or any other that competes with it on merits (but not the price). The new washing machine will eventually become cheaper and better because they can now increase the production capacity as profits roll in. Meanwhile, the other companies will be forced to make their offerings cheaper and remove any offending 'features' if they want to sell any of it. And when they do, it will restore the market competition and drive the market further in favor of the consumers. This is what we want.

However, what happens is exactly the opposite of the above. Someone introduces a smart washing machine into a market full of regular dumb washing machines. They make it cheaper by collaborating with other companies - like recording and selling user data to third parties. Since the consumers are not organized, a sizable portion of the population will start choosing it. That population doesn't have to be the majority. It needs to be just big enough for other manufacturers to notice the slump in their sales. Even if malpractice in the product is obvious, they'll choose to sacrifice their privacy for the short term savings with some justification like 'I don't have anything to hide'. What happens next is well known. Other companies notice the loss of sales and are forced to follow suite. At some point, even the consumers who were never willing to compromise will be left without any choice. This is a repeating story with a lot of products. But one where this is very egregiously obvious is the smart TV market.

Meanwhile, the big companies actually organize to drive the market in that direction - again motivated by profits. One well known example of this is the 'Geneva Cartel' where manufactures banded together to mandate planned obsolescence of electric bulbs. Another example is the US telecom industry. Those companies would have preferred to create a monopoly first and then do this. However due to the anti-monopoly laws, they're motivated to organize together as co-monopolies instead. To this end, even the billionaires that own these rival multinational giants maintain an exclusive and secretive social club where they conduct all these scheming. They behave exactly like those old royal families and modern crime syndicate families to protect their privileged position in society.

> How the market hasn't seen an opening; why someone else hasn't started making machines to fill these niches.

> There are so many pro-consumer ideas (I've only listed a few) that a company could seize upon to market themselves. And unlike pocket consumer-electronics, there's little barrier to entry. You don't need to reinvent anything (quite the opposite).

I think the above explanation answers these questions too. The final point is that the larger consumer community lacks the long-term strategic planning that involves sacrificing short term savings, and the ability to unite for a common cause. The much smaller business community uses these same skills effectively against the consumers to consolidate wealth as much as possible. This weakness of the consumer community is clearly evident even on HN. Despite being a technical community, a few here would rather argue that privacy is not important to them, than unite with everyone and use their weight to push the market in the opposite direction.

The above situation is not a lost cause though. People have united together to achieve much harder goals. What's needed is a solid motivation. And in this situation, that motivation can come from the awareness of the class war and the exploitation they're subjected to under it. That needs a lot of public campaigns. It needn't start big outright. It can start with token signs of protest and gradually build up mass and momentum from there as the people take notice. We already have such a campaign in progress right now - the clippy propic campaign that Louis Rossmann kicked off. We need more people to take similar initiatives.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to understand why companies can't build things to last, use real buttons, provide parts for servicing at cost, add local APIs for anything "smart", forgo any secondary income streams (eg screens showing ads), and still make a profit . It isn't that hard to understand. They can. They just choose not to, because success isn't defined by profits anymore. It's now defined by profit growth . The only ethical w…

> It isn't that hard to understand. They can. What's hard to to understand is how we allow them. How the market hasn't seen an opening; why someone else hasn't started making machines to fill these niches. There are so many pro-consumer ideas (I've only listed a few) that a company could seize upon to market themselves. And unlike pocket consumer-electronics, there's little barrier to entry. You don't need to reinven…

There's the dampening effect of private equity and reputation arbitrage to consider. If you build a company around steadfast refusal to profitmaxx, potential acquirers who are willing to apply these techniques can financially engineer their way to offering you a very, very, very tempting price for it. Your personal convictions will need to be proof against extremely strong financial motivation; and if you have partners or creditors, they'll need to share the same tenacity.

It still does seem like it should be more visible, though. I'm not sure how many good examples there are, if any, of new companies growing to an appreciable size from explicit repudiation of these practices only to then eventually be acquired and gutted. Maybe people who think like this just don't start companies.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#87
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my microwave oven has two knobs: how hot and how long. I paid an extra £50 to get a model of fridge without WiFi. sadly my washing machine is already at the free-spinning encoder stage - I don't hate it with a passion, but more of a low-enthusiasm. I dread replacing anything that breaks in the next few years.

Why not get the wifi enabled fridge and just not hook it up to your router? Genuinely asking because I plan to do this once I have to get new appliances, is there something missing that way?

at some point they'll put limits until you connect. it might go from just not working to limiting the temperature or whatever.

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#89

I just want normal buttons and dials back. Not time-based capacitance buttons that take 5.02 seconds to activate, not 5.0 seconds; nor free-spinning encoder wheels that mandate you give it a jiggle before the washer does anything, even if it's already on the setting you want. I want kachunk-a-chunk back first. Then we can decide if it needs smarts.

>> I just want normal buttons and dials back There are washing machines without any screens, just old buttons. Also they are cheaper, I can see now in the store for just €270. But looks like many people wants screens, apps and happily pay extra for washing machine with extra features.

Do people really want them, or is that what is offered and do most people just buy whatever they see in a store or on the first page of a retailer online?

We keep pretending that everything that companies do is because consumers want it, but we ignore the part where companies do certain things because its better for them. Like a washing machine that uses 4 gig of data a day, or a washing machine that needs access to you photos????

Re: Homeowner baffled after washing machine uses 3.6GB of internet data a day (2024)

#90
post #55

I am playing with home automation, and one of the reasons i’m only using zigbee devices is that they have no outside network access. I have two wifi thermostats that I bought before, and one of these days I’m going to have to set up a firewall of some kind to block them from outside access.

The wifi devices are cheaper IME, so I created a IOT VLAN that does not have internet access, nor access to my normal network unless it was initiated from the trusted side.

Ikea home automation is all zigbee, and that stuff is dirt cheap. But if you want something ikea doesn’t sell, like wall switches and thermostats, wifi stuff does tend to be a hair cheaper.

A vlan sounds like the way to go to quarantine devices.

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