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Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

bigbrotherwatch.org.uk

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Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#81

Post by ionwake »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #74
ionwake wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its that some anonymity gives safety from the government. IE during WW2 Holland kept such meticulous records on its citizens that it indirectly leads to the greatest numbers of imprisoned ethnic groups ( because the information was there , easily accessible by the invading forces. I think thats a good example of how too much info results in vulnerability for citizens. I dont have an opinion on this just shari…

> anonymity gives safety from the government Drivers licenses are effectively already being used as state ID cards in all but name, so it's not as if the government doesn't already have that information.

I was about to moan at you, but you have an excellent point.

I have no idea then.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#82

Post by blitzar »

flumpcakes wrote: post #35

Can anyone explain why this is a bad thing? All I hear about this is conspiracy theories or anti-government rhetoric but never a clear reason to why this is bad. I can't see a reason considering all of the benefits it can bring, and similar things have been rolled out across Nordic countries.

Only big tech should be allowed to have databases of people and all their preferences (or the other companies / governments they sell their databases to).

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#83

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

somelamer567 wrote: post #77
nmeofthestate wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. I think it raises peoples' hackles because it is "not something we do here" - English-speaking countries seem to not go with mandatory ID in the same way as continental Europe. Maybe a Napoleonic/Common-Law thing? (Personally, I don't object to the idea).

This seems to be a pub bore talking point... the usual seemingly-clever street-level arguments that don't stand up to serious scrutiny. If people think that if they get ID card, the government is coming to take their precious bodily fluids, then the country has bigger cultural, political problems than a mere public safety measure.

Some of the UK's biggest industries are money laundering and offshore tax evasion schemes for the very rich. They're literally worth hundreds of billions a year.

It's not a pub bore talking point, it's an oligarch and non-dom talking point. A lot of rich people would be inconvenienced if beneficial owner information records had reliable links to real people.

The pub bores are collateral damage - people who post unironically about privacy on social media.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#84

Post by zahllos »

stringsandchars wrote: post #34

OTOH - partly playing devil's advocate here - I'm dealing with several bank and inheritance-related issues in the UK from my home in Sweden now, and needing to do pretty much ANYTHING with an authority in the UK feels like stepping back into the 17th century. There's a constant requirement for paperwork to prove who I am - always in the form of items that are 100% digital nowadays in the Nordic countries (like a "uti…

Agree. Proof of ID in the UK often means copies of utility bills. You can fill out your own with an online template pretty easily. Inside the UK you don't even need to bother with the notarization requirement. It is indeed backwards.

You can say "well you have a driving license" except if you're a teenager or an elderly person who surrendered theirs, you don't. You can also say "use a passport" but they're not convenient to carry and some people have never left the country so never owned one.

An ID card isn't a bad idea per se. It's the same as a driving license except everyone can have it.

What is bad in this round is the government making everyone have it on their phone "because digital is cheaper" (guarantee it will cost billions either way). Similar problems - what about people who don't have phones, how do you mandate I install this on my dumb phone?

The previous iteration might've worked had they not gone overboard on sequencing everyone's genome and giving every government agency and their dog access (only slight exaggeration) to the data.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#85

Post by lmz »

username332211 wrote: post #51
willvarfar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, yeah, to use the online government and financial services in Sweden need BankID, which is almost always on your mobile phone. You can also use a PC, although that is fading away. ID cards are also a thing, and in principle every grownup should always be carrying ID although its not like everybody really does when walking around the park etc. There are paper and in-person alternatives to the online services…

> Generally, yeah, to use the online government and financial services in Sweden need BankID, which is almost always on your mobile phone. Can someone explain to me why phones seem to be considered more secure than online communication channels or desktops? The way I see it, it's a computing device you install all sorts of crap on, sourced from all sorts of questionably trustworthy sources (especially as all sort of…

Because it can be more secure and everyone has one. And it can be made quite hard to tamper with, unlike your average desktop. Consider that apps are sandboxed by default, and hardware secure element key storage should be available. Of course a Yubikey would be better.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#86

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

HK-NC wrote: post #46
lyu07282 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK politics is very simple: People have a lot of economic grievances and they are frustrated. People are made to believe that the source of their problems are immigrants/non-white people. So for a lot of people in the UK, anything against immigrants, even more drastic measures, are worth it and it makes the government appear to do something about their problems. Nothing ever really gets better of course, but they hav…

Fair to add that, despite every winning party promising reduced immigration on some level, and everyone that wanted to remain in the EU rightfully annoyed that Brexiters were simply voting because of migration, nobody in power has ever given the people what they want in this regard.

And no one will, because the UK wants cheap foreign labour. To no one's surprise, immigration rocketed after Brexit.

This allows the ruling party - the one whose names and faces keep changing, but whose policies don't - to keep using immigration for political leverage while also benefiting from it.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#87

Post by [deleted] »

flumpcakes wrote: post #35

Can anyone explain why this is a bad thing? All I hear about this is conspiracy theories or anti-government rhetoric but never a clear reason to why this is bad. I can't see a reason considering all of the benefits it can bring, and similar things have been rolled out across Nordic countries.

[deleted]

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#88

Post by octo888 »

stringsandchars wrote: post #34

OTOH - partly playing devil's advocate here - I'm dealing with several bank and inheritance-related issues in the UK from my home in Sweden now, and needing to do pretty much ANYTHING with an authority in the UK feels like stepping back into the 17th century. There's a constant requirement for paperwork to prove who I am - always in the form of items that are 100% digital nowadays in the Nordic countries (like a "uti…

I haven't had any organisation insist on a paper copy of a bill/statement for probably 10 years now

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#89

Post by LatteLazy »

nemomarx wrote: post #2

Why is the UK politics scene so focused on digital ID? Blair first proposed it and I feel like I've heard about it continually since with no progress. Different justifications every time too

The UK has a bunch of deeply divided issues: 40% want lower house prices and rents (tenants and would be buyers) and 40% want higher house prices and rents (landlords and owners). The same is true for taxes and immigration and crime/justice and welfare etc.

So governments are desperate NOT to do anything on most issues. And they are desperate to do SOMETHING (as a distraction) on issues seen as more neutral and less likely to offend vast numbers of people.

Re: Rights groups urge UK PM Starmer to abandon plans for mandatory digital ID

#90

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

testdelacc1 wrote: post #78

I don’t find what either side is saying here very convincing. Anti-ID “it will change our relationship with the state, cause irreversible damage to our civil liberties and fail to deter illegal immigration”. They say it will lead to “frequent identity checks as we navigate our daily lives”. That last part isn’t true, for sure. I’ve lived in a country with a digital ID and you had to verify your identity a few times a…

Perhaps the recent Banquet of Oligarchs in the UK, the recent age verification (tracking) law, and the recent deals with Palantir, etc, suggest what this is really about.
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