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Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

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Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#81

Post by RajT88 »

eru wrote: post #54
codq wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without tectonics, is terraforming Mars even possible as a long term solution? This "Mars colonization" strategy seems like a pipe dream, no?

The lack of tectonics would only be a problem if you want your terraforming to be 'one and done'. If you admit that terraforming, even after it's 'done', will require an ongoing maintenance effort, it's simple (but not easy). Eg you can use satellites to spin up an artificial magnetic field to shield against solar wind. However, I suspect terraforming planets is a waste. Far more bang for your buck to build habitats…

That is some out of the box thinking!

I would say the key thing with Mercury is the ability to dig fast.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#82

Post by jibal »

themafia wrote: post #79
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we evolved on Venus then it would be our Eden I don't think we can just anthropic principle this one away. We couldn't have evolved on Venus. It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. > Is your model anywhere good enough to be able to get useful outcomes from this process? I would suspect not Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment.

> It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. That's obviously the point I was making. > Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment. No, I said my _suspicion_ is that you cannot, and you're being a hypocrite.

> That's obviously the point I was making.

No, it obviously wasn't.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#83

Post by [deleted] »

themafia wrote: post #79
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we evolved on Venus then it would be our Eden I don't think we can just anthropic principle this one away. We couldn't have evolved on Venus. It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. > Is your model anywhere good enough to be able to get useful outcomes from this process? I would suspect not Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment.

> It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. That's obviously the point I was making. > Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment. No, I said my _suspicion_ is that you cannot, and you're being a hypocrite.

[deleted]

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#84

Post by JumpCrisscross »

themafia wrote: post #79
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we evolved on Venus then it would be our Eden I don't think we can just anthropic principle this one away. We couldn't have evolved on Venus. It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. > Is your model anywhere good enough to be able to get useful outcomes from this process? I would suspect not Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment.

> It's valid to ask whether any complex life could. That's obviously the point I was making. > Got it, reflexive blanket dismissal comment. No, I said my _suspicion_ is that you cannot, and you're being a hypocrite.

> That's obviously the point I was making

It obviously isn't given you followed up with "if we evolved on Venus."

> I said my _suspicion_ is that you cannot

Which you followed up by dismissing the work for suspecting it did not consider [insert random armchair complication].

> you're being a hypocrite

Nope. I actually read and thought about your comment, initially in good faith.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#85

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kulahan wrote: post #11
chasil wrote: post #8

Venus does not have a molten core, and there is no magnetic field protecting the atmosphere from the solar winds. This is not likely the sole reason, but it must be a factor. Mercury does have a magnetic field, Mars does not.

Mars, interestingly, was just determined to have a core almost identical to Earth’s as I understand it. This is not the sole determinant of course - you still need enough volatiles, enough gravity to maintain a hold on the lightest elements across billions of years, and tectonics to keep refreshing the atmosphere. Unfortunately for us all, Mars has none of those. There may be other significant factors as well.

I've seen increasingly credible arguments that you also need a large satellite. To stabilise the planet's wobble. And, more importantly, create the sort of tidal cycles that prompt RNA worlds in the lab.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#86

Post by r14c »

bamboozled wrote: post #71
r14c wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not even about deserving it. How are going to maintain a terraforming project or build habitable orbital platforms if we can't manage keeping our natural habitat habitable?

Maybe projects like this would distract us from stupid tribalism ?

distractions don't solve problems. "just do the projects" doesn't resolve the management issue anyway. the climate crisis is a result of our inability to coordinate mass actions on a planetary scale to avoid damaging our habitat.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#87

Post by elcritch »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78
eru wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of tectonics would only be a problem if you want your terraforming to be 'one and done'. If you admit that terraforming, even after it's 'done', will require an ongoing maintenance effort, it's simple (but not easy). Eg you can use satellites to spin up an artificial magnetic field to shield against solar wind. However, I suspect terraforming planets is a waste. Far more bang for your buck to build habitats…

> If you admit that terraforming, even after it's 'done', will require an ongoing maintenance effort The Earth hasn't always been hospitale to humans, much less technological civilisation. Chances are, we'll have to do similar "maintenance" at home, too. (Easiest to grasp: deflecting asteroids.) > I suspect terraforming planets is a waste. Far more bang for your buck to build habitats in space from scratch This comes…

Great, and rats will become super adapted to space. Then they'll become endemic to any space habitats humanity builds. Terraforming planets sounds more plausible than not ending up with rats and cockroaches.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#89

Post by JumpCrisscross »

elcritch wrote: post #87
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you admit that terraforming, even after it's 'done', will require an ongoing maintenance effort The Earth hasn't always been hospitale to humans, much less technological civilisation. Chances are, we'll have to do similar "maintenance" at home, too. (Easiest to grasp: deflecting asteroids.) > I suspect terraforming planets is a waste. Far more bang for your buck to build habitats in space from scratch This comes…

Great, and rats will become super adapted to space. Then they'll become endemic to any space habitats humanity builds. Terraforming planets sounds more plausible than not ending up with rats and cockroaches.

> and rats will become super adapted to space

That would be great! It would strongly imply humans, over cycles of reproducing in space, would too. I suspect, unfortunately, we'd have to iron out some kinks first [1].

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8675004/

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