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Why We Spiral

behavioralscientist.org

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Re: Why We Spiral

#81

Post by watwut »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #19

As a person with long experiences in trauma responses, I see this sort of behavior pattern everywhere. There’s so much “trust your gut!!” advice when the gut can be deeply wrong especially when it comes to identifying interpersonal threats. We don’t educate people in how to process their feelings in a healthy manner and to differentiate what they feel is happening and how they should behave. This results in anything…

I had opposite issue, again and again. "My gut" was actually correct again and again. I ignored it because if trying to be rational and objective. The gut was a lot more correct at identifying interpersonal threats and bad actors.

Re: Why We Spiral

#82

Post by krzat »

uncircle wrote: post #80
softwaredoug wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who has a restless dog in the evenings can see DMN create anxiety. Like many dogs, my dog gets bored and looks for something to bark at. He scans out the window like I scan social media. He’s got extra energy that seems to need to go somewhere, and that somewhere seems to be looking out the window scanning for threats, barking, sounding meaner than he actually is. It’s like he manufactures anxiety out of nothi…

Great analogy with your dog. I noticed that when I’m doing the washing up, my DMN, for some reason, takes me to ruminate negatively about my relationships, and I constantly have to return my attention to something else. No wonder I’ve come to loathe it and let my dishes pile up. I find it can be a great tool for creativity, but needs to be directed or at least given some task to chew on; then I can close my eyes in a…

> that said, the default mode network should not be unjustly demonized.

Yeah, scrolling tiktok is pretty good at silencing the DMN. This practice does not seem to be particularly beneficial.

Re: Why We Spiral

#83

Post by norome »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #19

As a person with long experiences in trauma responses, I see this sort of behavior pattern everywhere. There’s so much “trust your gut!!” advice when the gut can be deeply wrong especially when it comes to identifying interpersonal threats. We don’t educate people in how to process their feelings in a healthy manner and to differentiate what they feel is happening and how they should behave. This results in anything…

The problem with "trust your gut" is that intuition is a skill which needs to be honed. Everyone has different levels of blockage to being genuinely in touch with their "gut". I think some people are more naturally synthetic thinkers and already live in a more body-guided way. For the walking heads like most of us here on HN we would need to spend time re-learning how to calibrate the body to give precise readings. So the advice needs some caveats.

Re: Why We Spiral

#84

Post by 47282847 »

t43562 wrote: post #22
47282847 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree but in my experience it becomes more complex when you cognitively decide on one thing (to assume the best), but don’t feel it. How you feel influences how it’s going to happen in major and in subtle ways. Your return friendliness may be received as snarky or sarcasm, or at least detected as insincere, to give one example.

In my experience you can only moderate your response. So you cannot pretend to be very pleased when you're 90% certain that someone has been very rude to you but you can avoid an immediate angry response and give yourself time to think. I sometimes feel that I'm being put upon at the moment and then later think perhaps not - I'm always glad when I manage to restrain my initial reaction.

The main point I wanted to make is that if you only assume the best but don’t actually believe it, you might think their reaction to your (pretended) niceness “confirms“ your assumption, where what it actually confirms is your belief and not their original intent.

Re: Why We Spiral

#85

Post by neuronic »

truelson wrote: post #30

A key part of breaking cycles for me has been noticing when my default mode network ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network ) or DMN is being activated, being able to stop, do a series of 4-2-6 breaths to activate the parasympathetic nervous system and focus on what I'm doing in the present. The DMN is the little chatterbox "daemon" always talking in the background. Learning to consistently notice it and…

For anyone wondering like me:

> What is the 4-2-6 breathing technique?

> The 4-2-6 breathing technique is a calming exercise. First, inhale slowly for four seconds. Then, hold your breath for two seconds. Finally, exhale slowly and steadily for six seconds. This technique helps by making your exhale longer than your inhale, which is a signal to your body to relax. It's particularly useful when you need to settle your mind before sleep or if you're feeling anxious and need to steady your nerves.

Source: https://www.calm.com/blog/breathing-exercises-for-anxiety

Re: Why We Spiral

#86

Post by recy »

JumpinJack_Cash wrote: post #59

All this pattern recognition hypersensitivity in interpersonal relationships stems from the millions of years in which we killed each other (at a much higher rate compared to now) . Somebody seems out of place in a group = killed or left starving or even sacrificed to the Gods in order to please them and get a good harvest. Now we are in a different time not every moment is a do or die moment, we also only have a cer…

[dead]

Re: Why We Spiral

#87

Post by whstl »

mberning wrote: post #45
th0ma5 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should be said that abusive, toxic work environments can creep up until you're in one, and hearing things like people should just have a tough skin. What would be a more specific way of putting that?

I don't know what point you are trying to make. One person's "abusive and toxic work environment" is another's "results driven organization". If you find yourself in a role that doesn't fit you, or you have serious doubts about, my best advice would be to leave. You are unlikely to meaningfully change the culture. In fact it will probably achieve the opposite of what you want, and people will dislike you for trying.

This is a false dichotomy.

Places that use the phrase "results driven" as a rationalisation for toxicity are never about results.

If a place is really "results driven", then people should be expected at EVERY level, to communicate like adults, to be matter-of-fact and to have clear expectations. All this is the opposite of a "toxic environment".

Without exception, places that require employees to have "thick skins" are actually "ego driven" with results be damned, because they are led by bosses with the emotional maturity of a preteen. Results 100% take a backseat to ego here.

Re: Why We Spiral

#88

Post by roenxi »

Aurornis wrote: post #55
Waterluvian wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of maturing professionally is how I’ve gotten a better handle on not trusting my gut. He’s here to take my job. The VP knows him and hired him directly. There’s so many signals each week that say I’m right. He’s trying to take credit for a decade of my hard work. He’s going to exploit me and everyone will believe him and not me. The more likely reality: he’s new here and I’ve been here for a decade…

> He’s here to take my job. The VP knows him and hired him directly. There’s so many signals each week that say I’m right. He’s trying to take credit for a decade of my hard work. He’s going to exploit me and everyone will believe him and not me. I think this is where it’s important to know yourself. If you’re having a constant stream of anxiety inducing thoughts and light paranoia, learning how to silence those and…

Even then shutting down the anxiety and paranoia is a good idea. You're friend didn't know how to process reality without feeling negative, maybe. But it can be done and they should probably learn how to do that. A calm & confident person can still see if a problem is coming, the real world isn't determined by the feelings of the viewer but by actual evidence present and a very fine sliver of basic world modelling. The difference is a well grounded person will just note it and feel pretty good about the whole process as they brush dust of the resume and start job hunting. Did their best, had a good time, made some friends, exciting new opportunities, etcetera.

Nobody has to be a pessimist to make accurate forecasts. It doesn't even help. The more your emotions and personality influence the forecast the worse a forecast it is, the future does not rewarp itself because the viewer feels positive or negative.

Re: Why We Spiral

#89

Post by whstl »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #70
andrewflnr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you also get disasters when people ignore their gut/"vibes" and try to do the "rational" thing based on more easily nameable evidence. The gut is not reliable , but it is a model that's trained on a lot of data and shouldn't be ignored. As usual there are no easy answers.

Frankly being able to point to specific behaviors that trigger vibes is something that comes easily to me as someone who, again, had to work through identifying trauma responses and reacting accordingly. It’s just a skill I think more people would benefit from picking up. I respond really poorly when I don’t feel understood, but I also have a tendency to be vague on details so it is normal for me to get misunderstood…

100% this.

Some people are indeed very good at picking up on specific behaviours. The problem is that requires maturity and self reflection, so it's not something you learn in a day.

The lesson here should be that trusting one's gut might be good, but acting out on it is bad. Don't spiral. Don't confront the possible charlatan. Don't react on your gut the second after the other guy stole your credit.

Re: Why We Spiral

#90

Post by whstl »

Aurornis wrote: post #54
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #19

As a person with long experiences in trauma responses, I see this sort of behavior pattern everywhere. There’s so much “trust your gut!!” advice when the gut can be deeply wrong especially when it comes to identifying interpersonal threats. We don’t educate people in how to process their feelings in a healthy manner and to differentiate what they feel is happening and how they should behave. This results in anything…

> We don’t educate people in how to process their feelings in a healthy manner and to differentiate what they feel is happening and how they should behave. This results in anything like saying someone has “bad vibes” to be a reason to exclude them, to actively covering for someone with a known pattern of harming people simply because they are charming In recent years the workplaces I’ve been involved with have actual…

Interesting. My criteria for hiring is the opposite of this, and I wouldn't have it any other way. If someone is technically great but combative in an interview, they get a "strong no" from me.

It's nothing big: especially in a startup environment there will be situations where the product manager or another engineer will ask for changes, and I expect people to adapt, or at least to argue the merits of the change. Make no mistake, a lot of those people WERE able to adapt code-wise, and I was even praising them, but they did the changes while voicing concerns and complaining that my task "was badly defined, since I didn't tell them about possible future changes". One got very annoyed verbally at a small requisite change, even though we still had only used half the scheduled time, but we were almost finished with everything.

And this HAS paid off! This happened rarely, but more than half of those people got incredibly triggered by their rejections, and a couple even demanded talking directly with the team. In one case, we had someone coming to the company. It wasn't a lot, I must have interviewed over 200-300 people there, but it was significant.

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