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Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

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Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#81
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

Junior high principal in Hyogo fired for stealing seven half cups of coffee [Feb. 3, 2024] https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-princip...

"Seven cups" ? i.e. a repeat offence ?

I'm not sure there's any scope for debate here really, surely its all a bit beyond beyond "it was an accident, Officer" at that stage ?

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#82
post #42

That's wonderful, but it's not a big surprise for me. When in Tokyo I encountered vending machines on a public street (the Ginza) that dispensed bottles of whiskey—Suntory if I recall—that operated 24 hours a day. If you wanted a drink at 3AM you could get it. Where I am that vending machine would be vandalized overnight and the owner of such an appliance shop would be broke and out of business the next day. Shame re…

Those vending machines are supposed to check ID but I've never seen one do (I think cigarette machines do). They just turn off at night and apparently that's enough to stop children from using them.

It's quite some time since I've been there but I can't remember an ID system being in place. I didn't have to produce an ID and usually I selected non-alcoholic drinks. However, that was before the proliferation of smartphones, so back then it is likely there was no ID checking.

As a nonsmoker, I can't speak about cigarette machines, likely there was no ID on them too.

Nowadays, with smartphones etc. checking IDs is comparatively easy but I can't think how it would have been done back then.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#83
post #78
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

> People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee. God I love Japan. Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.

> Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.

This might lead someone to wrongly conclude that high order societies are a matter of policing. It's not. It's a matter of culture. Japan doesn't have more cops per citizen than your average 1st world country. But they do have a culture that deeply condemns crime and values honor.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#84
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After traveling for years, I often wonder how various cultures end up high or low trust. Wealth or financial inequality doesn't seem to be the main driving factor, despite seeming an obvious cause. Racial and ethnic homogeneity doesn't always explain it either. Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor.

Colonialism is turning the UK into a low trust society?

I didn't suggest it was the only factor. I guess if you want a single explanation, any significant immigration or influence from a vastly different culture will likely lead to a lower trust society.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#85
post #24

I'm blown away by a fridge costing <$100, used or not. Did I misunderstand the prices?

I can buy used fridges all day long for €50. I've gotten fridges for free that were still good for years after that.

No one wants used white goods. Fridges, washing machines and dishwashers you can pick up below $100 easily.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#86
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee. God I love Japan. Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.

> Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted. This might lead someone to wrongly conclude that high order societies are a matter of policing. It's not. It's a matter of culture. Japan doesn't have more cops per citizen than your average 1st world country. But they do have a culture that deeply condemns crime and values honor.

I agree, but I’d submit that the way the criminal justice system works reinforces culture. Swiftly catching and consistently punishing law breakers helps reinforce the social norms against crime.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#87
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colonialism is turning the UK into a low trust society?

I didn't suggest it was the only factor. I guess if you want a single explanation, any significant immigration or influence from a vastly different culture will likely lead to a lower trust society.

Agreed.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#88
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's tempting to see security guards as a basic response to criminal behaviour. But I wonder if the causality is more complex than that. I can easily imagine growing up under different circumstances to view society as a case of "me" vs "them", and I'd be more inclined to lift from shops run by people who clearly see me as enough of a low-life that they'd pay some thugs to man-handle me out.

I live in a city where self-checkout was implemented for bus rides. You still had a chance for a random bus inspection, but generally you can just walk into the bus and not pay anything, then walk out. It was so strange at first, to see everyone paying when there was no authority demanding a payment. Knowing that government trusts people around me to behave like good citizens, and knowing how many people actually fol…

"15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed."

It's decades since I backpacked around Europe on trains and such, and back then slashing pockets and bags was rife. I never traveled anywhere unless I was wearing a money belt strapped to my waist—it held my passport, traveler's checks, large denomination notes and credit cards. I kept my wallet (with only a small amount of cash) in my front jeans pockets—I reckoned that down there I'd notice any slashing pretty quickly. Pants with side pockets were a no-no because they were too easy to pickpocket.

I recall one particularly bad incident in Italy of being surrounded by organised mobs of kids who'd act in ways to distract one's attention whilst others tried to pickpocket one's valuables. I came out unscathed because I was wary from the start.

Later I was living and working in Europe and it was very obvious to me that this sort of crime is much more prevalent in areas where people are unemployed or where there is a great disparity between rich and poor. I've no doubt the solution to such crime is having a society where the distribution of wealth is more equitable.

Re that point and yours about self-checkout for bus rides. That system was implemented a few years ago where I am. I've made the interesting observation that those who travel outside normal to-and-from work hours—say late morning and early afternoon—are the ones most likely to not swipe their travel card on the payment terminal. When I've traveled at those times I'm surprised at the numbers who do not pay. This is in stark contrast to those who are traveling to and from work, at those hours just about everyone pays.

Again, this, no doubt, is an equity/financial issue. Those traveling in the 'off hours' are more likely to be unemployed and or financially hard up.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#89
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a 99.8% conviction rate.

Only 33 prisoners per 100k population (cf 541 in the US). Whatever they're doing, it's working. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarce...

In 2024, the average US prison sentence was for a duration of 52 months, with over half the total months being for drug trafficking (average 82 months) https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-pu... (page 11).

Also in 2024, Japanese prison sentences were mostly between 1 and 3 years, and about two thirds were fully suspended. https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf (page 20). Assuming an average of two years for the third not-fully-suspended, that works out to 8 months of time spent in prison per person handed a prison sentence.

That results in about a factor of 7 difference in prison population simply due to the difference in average sentence length. Maybe the US should sentence more people to prison but keep each of them there shorter.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#90
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we had a way to make this sort of system work in a low trust society. I’d rather we had a way to change low trust societies into high trust.

After traveling for years, I often wonder how various cultures end up high or low trust. Wealth or financial inequality doesn't seem to be the main driving factor, despite seeming an obvious cause. Racial and ethnic homogeneity doesn't always explain it either. Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor.

Agreed, points well made. I think an ordered society with long-term stability has much to do with it.
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