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Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

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Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#81

Post by ktallett »

The issue with all the layouts for me is the challenge of buying a device with them. I use Neo2 daily (I changed due to injuries and it has helped me recover and still be able to type) and the only method I enjoyed was getting a blank keyboard on a Framework Laptop (as stickers all over the place is not for me) and I bought an MNT Research Keyboard in a Neo2 layout. Regular usage is key, and a desire/need to change keyboards. I previously tried to switch to Dvorak on one of those Typematrix keyboards and never kept it up as the pain of switching wasn't worth it.

I can still use qwerty due to muscle memory when I need to, I just find myself making dumb mistakes initially. As others have said, typing speed is not a focus due to my ability to only think at a specific pace.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#82

Post by adornKey »

KingEllis wrote: post #53
k__ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text." To be fair, that single key is used rather excessively compared to the rest.

I had never considered until now that my left thumb never touches the keyboard.

I think having Shift available for the thumb would help a lot (in the middle just below Space bar).

Most experimental layouts that add more features make the mistake to overload it, some of these things even look totally thumb-driven.... This make everything very confusing. Just Shift for a start, would be good. The pinky is too much overloaded. Offloading some of it to the thumb would actually be an improvement.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#83

Post by mechanicum »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70
justsomehnguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab. Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

It’s about hand movement, not desk space.

The “missing” keys are on additional layers reached via a modifier key, or by overloading keys on tap/hold, or by increasingly esoteric methods the smaller the board gets: chording, tap dance, etc. They’re typically no less accessible than capital letters, while allowing you to keep your fingers on the home row.

For me, the additional keys on my larger keyboards rarely prove useful in practice. I end up mostly using the same subset available on the 60% I’m typing on now – it’s quicker and more comfortable than reaching over to the dedicated key.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#84

Post by adornKey »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70
justsomehnguy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab. Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

Less things to connect, less switches, less caps, ... I think it's mostly about manufacturing cost. If you build a keyboard yourself, you're glad if you have to solder less. So for sure any prototype of a new design will start small. If you go full size price goes up a lot.

For usability alone those small sizes don't make much sense in an office or on a desk.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#85

Post by adornKey »

mechanicum wrote: post #83
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What puzzles me about the mechanical keyboard market is why they go for the small keyboards to begin with. I can't imagine anyone has a desk so small that the handful of inches shaved off really makes a difference. So why subject oneself to having to relearn all the muscle memory, and the lack of useful keys? It makes no sense to me.

It’s about hand movement, not desk space. The “missing” keys are on additional layers reached via a modifier key, or by overloading keys on tap/hold, or by increasingly esoteric methods the smaller the board gets: chording, tap dance, etc. They’re typically no less accessible than capital letters, while allowing you to keep your fingers on the home row. For me, the additional keys on my larger keyboards rarely prove…

On the other hand there is spatial memory. Overloading things has some downsides - it adds more possibilities for errors - and makes muscle memory complicated.

In a lot of software those extra function keys are well used, easily go into muscle memory and help to safe a lot of time.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#86

Post by adrian_b »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #24

I tried to convert to Dvorak. I even switched my keycaps, but when I started learning with linux application, I finished at level 3. It required me to write three different letters. When there was 1 - it was okay. When 2 - quite nice. But 3 - it made me feel pain in the back and in the brain. It felt like something was going very wrong with my nervous system. I had to quit.

It is likely that you did not have enough patience.

When planning to switch between keyboard layouts, you must be prepared to allocate at least a week in which you will not have to type anything useful at the computer, because initially your typing speed will drop tremendously and you must be able to resist the temptation of reverting to Qwerty or whichever is the layout used previously.

After a week of practice, using only the new key layout for everything, you should be able to use a computer for normal tasks, but still you will be much slower than before. After a month, you should recover your typing speed and begin to realize that typing has become much more comfortable.

It is preferable to not switch the key caps. Even if you have never achieved blind touch typing on Qwerty, it is much easier to achieve it on Dvorak and this can be a benefit of switching the keyboard layouts. At least for me, the assignment of letters to keys has been much easier to memorize for Dvorak than for Qwerty, being more logical. Of course, after enough practice, muscle memory will take over and you will no longer be aware of the key assignments.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#87

Post by tmtvl »

grim_io wrote: post #7

I've tried to switch to Dvorak, but after a year I was just tired of the universally shitty default keybinding experience. Either customize every app to better match the layout, or live with the afterthought UX. Oh, and gaming. Better get used to switching to qwerty.

I've been using Dvorak for around 6 years now, don't know what you mean with 'universally shitty default keybinding experience'. I don't have any issues either in Emacs or in applications which use the inferior CUA keybindings. I suppose if you want to use certain keybindings one-handed it could be awkward, but I prefer holding the modifier with the opposite hand (for example right hand control + left hand 'a').

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#88

Post by adrian_b »

ktallett wrote: post #81

The issue with all the layouts for me is the challenge of buying a device with them. I use Neo2 daily (I changed due to injuries and it has helped me recover and still be able to type) and the only method I enjoyed was getting a blank keyboard on a Framework Laptop (as stickers all over the place is not for me) and I bought an MNT Research Keyboard in a Neo2 layout. Regular usage is key, and a desire/need to change k…

At least for me, achieving blind touch typing has been much easier with Dvorak than with Qwerty.

I have used Qwerty for decades, but I was still looking from time to time at the keyboard. After switching to Dvorak on a Qwerty marked keyboard, I have never needed to look at the keyboard again, so there is no point in having a Dvorak-marked keyboard when a standard keyboard is fine.

So a good ergonomic keyboard should be used, but how the keys are marked should not matter.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#89

Post by adrian_b »

antiquark wrote: post #5

In a tech support scenario, Dvorak is always troublesome. You sit down to type at someone's computer, and random characters start popping out.

Tech support scenarios are most frequently remote, when both the IT person and the assisted user are typing on their own keyboards, sharing the screen.

In this normal scenario, the keyboard layouts do not matter.

"Tech support" when both people are in the front of the same computer happens more between friends or colleagues, when typing speed does not matter, than in professional corporate tech support.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#90

Post by throw10920 »

goosedragons wrote: post #57
dylan604 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile every use of shift, return, backspace, ctrl etc is done with the weakest fingers and often include some hand stretching to reach those keys. As previously stated, this is only an issue for non-practiced typers. With practice, it no longer feels like stretching. It just becomes muscle memory. It's like a novice golfer complaining that it hurts their hips when they rotate through the swing, or a tennis play…

Nah dawg. I was a practiced touch typist for years. We had oodles of typing in elementary school. Pain in my pinkies didn't get better. Only worse because keys like {}| are far more important in programming than writing English and add to pinkie stress. Switching to a Kinesis Advantage with thumb keys and layers to put keys like {} under better fingers resolved my problem.

Yeah, the parent's implication is just wrong:

> As previously stated, this is only an issue for non-practiced typers. With practice, it no longer feels like stretching. It just becomes muscle memory.

Becoming a good typist doesn't magically change your pinkie from being the weakest finger on your hand to the strongest. That's basic anatomy. And, specifically if you are a good typist, then your neutral hand position will absolutely involve stretching your pinkie to hit enter/backspace/shift - they're exactly wrong with their assertion.

I'm vaguely aware of the Kinesis Advantage - it looks like a pretty solid ergonomic keyboard (although it may not be for me because it's not a split keyboard and my shoulders are pretty wide). Does the software do QMK stuff like mod-tap?

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