"This tool 10x the productivity of software engineers" "GREAT! That means we can fire the people who do the actual work, and replace them with MBA robots, who neither understand nor care about making a good product" Pardon my pessimism, but in my whole career, I have never met a PM who actual did the work of driving the product vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, desi…
Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
81–90 of 155 posts
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I have never met an engineer who actually did the work of driving the engineering vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling data between servers, disks, clients, and CPUs." You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the value PM's provide. What you describe as "just" is a challenging job. Generally, the vision is set by the founder, and it can be written down in a sentence or two. There's a ton of work trying to t…
Deeply flawed analogy. Engineers operate in the same organizational structure as PMs. Also, in product feature teams it is up to the debate whether PMs provide any value, if you put engineers closer to customers. For the PM role to work, they need to convey customer requirements to product requirements. I have never seen a PM do a better job at this in comparison to just sending a TL to a video call with a client.
Unless it is a team of senior folks with top skills, the team manages itself never works.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many people are seeing huge gains in coding productivity with AI. If you're not one of those people it might be useful to evaluate why you aren't experiencing any benefits, instead of claiming that there are none.
I don't think this line of reasoning holds. The only thing people should look at are peer reviewed studies, lots of them ideally, and with no conflict of interest. Who's getting productivity gains? What kinds of work are they doing? What doesn't work so well? All of these questions should be investigated by studies. People feeling productivity gains doesn't imply the gains exist. Otherwise it sounds like "many people…
"Ignore your own direct experience, only research papers matter" is certainly a take.
The beautiful thing about the current generation of tools is that they are so incredibly cheap relative to historical tools intended to improve engineering productivity. You can't just run out and pick up CASE tools for less than ~$CAR to ~$HOUSE. A pro subscription to whichever AI tool you want to try is $20.
Ignore research, try them, if you have success, use them. There's no dogma here. Just empiricism.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm speaking just to coding productivity. I think AI does very little for business development or creativity type issues. People should realize that denying that AI can boost productivity in coding makes it look like they don't know how to use it, or believe in some conspiracy that no one is actually benefitting and it's all market hype from tech bros.
If they were, where are their products and open source projects? Let's circle back. One thing I've noticed about the super-AI enthusiasts on HN is that not a single one ever have a single comment linking to a repo of work they've made with it. I check. I actually always do because I'm really keen to learn how to use these magical super-AI workflows. I've watched streams, replicated clause MD files, tried all the cont…
The bad algo was a scaling problem for one equation. That particular equation wasn't some y = mx + b thing, it was the result of a discontinuous galerkin finite element scheme that I wrote from scratch. The actual equation was one that I found after about 2 pages of hand written derivations with high level math. Not really a coding issue, just an algebra issue after really intense manipulations of partial differential equations.
The fact that AI found that problem, a problem that could only be found by someone able to do complex manipulations of PDEs is incredible to me. Perhaps I didn't tell the story well in the past comment, but it isn't like I didn't know python syntax and AI held my hand.
I don't post repos because I keep my hacker news life separate from my personal life, and my repos are tied to my name.
Most major software companies are demanding that their employees use AI, so you should be able to look at any open repo from Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc for examples of AI use in code.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#85"This tool 10x the productivity of software engineers" "GREAT! That means we can fire the people who do the actual work, and replace them with MBA robots, who neither understand nor care about making a good product" Pardon my pessimism, but in my whole career, I have never met a PM who actual did the work of driving the product vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, desi…
The Mythical Man-Month was written in 1975, and it seems hardly anyone has still bothered to read it.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How many times... Literally all the time? Every single month? I am struggling to understand your perspective. In my existence, the bottleneck is always the coding. The development team has a backlog that could keep them busy for years. Meanwhile, everyone else -- QA, localization, whatever -- operates at whatever pace the code gets delivered. Never in my entire life have I been in the situation where the engineerin…
A fully curated backlog with complete specifications that is kept up to date with current changes in the product/industry? I've never had the privilege of working in an environment like that.
But yes, the next few items for the team to work on should always have the necessary specifications to start work. Whether it's UX mocks or a requirements document or whatever. Having that stuff ready to go is a primary job of the PM who manages the backlog.
Obviously the engineering team then has to break it down further into tasks to complete, but that's what engineering is. And you will run into areas that turned out to be underspecified and the PM needs to liaison with other folks to figure out answers, but again that's part and parcel. That's not generally stopping the whole team from work, and teams often work on multiple features at once so even being temporarily blocked on one doesn't keep you from progress on another.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many people are seeing huge gains in coding productivity with AI. If you're not one of those people it might be useful to evaluate why you aren't experiencing any benefits, instead of claiming that there are none.
I don't think this line of reasoning holds. The only thing people should look at are peer reviewed studies, lots of them ideally, and with no conflict of interest. Who's getting productivity gains? What kinds of work are they doing? What doesn't work so well? All of these questions should be investigated by studies. People feeling productivity gains doesn't imply the gains exist. Otherwise it sounds like "many people…
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm speaking just to coding productivity. I think AI does very little for business development or creativity type issues. People should realize that denying that AI can boost productivity in coding makes it look like they don't know how to use it, or believe in some conspiracy that no one is actually benefitting and it's all market hype from tech bros.
I believe in some conspiracy that no one is actually benefitting. I don't want to blame marketing, it's genuinely very cool that I can give Cursor a description of what I'm trying to do and get a result that's like 80% correct. But I've repeatedly found that going from 80% to 100% takes just as much time and effort as it would have to do it myself from the start. I've shadowed people who believe AI is helping them, a…
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I have never met an engineer who actually did the work of driving the engineering vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling data between servers, disks, clients, and CPUs." You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the value PM's provide. What you describe as "just" is a challenging job. Generally, the vision is set by the founder, and it can be written down in a sentence or two. There's a ton of work trying to t…
Deeply flawed analogy. Engineers operate in the same organizational structure as PMs. Also, in product feature teams it is up to the debate whether PMs provide any value, if you put engineers closer to customers. For the PM role to work, they need to convey customer requirements to product requirements. I have never seen a PM do a better job at this in comparison to just sending a TL to a video call with a client.
I don't know what this means. Engineers are not generally spending half their time talking to management, marketing, sales, customers, and other stakeholders.
> Also, in product feature teams it is up to the debate whether PMs provide any value, if you put engineers closer to customers. For the PM role to work, they need to convey customer requirements to product requirements. I have never seen a PM do a better job at this in comparison to just sending a TL to a video call with a client.
Great, but ten different clients want ten different product requirements, that in fact contradict each other. And it takes ten hours of calls to talk to those ten customers.
Plenty of engineers could certainly do the PM job. Many PM's come from engineering. But the point is that it's far more efficient and effective to have one person doing that, and let engineers do the engineering. That's the value. As an engineer, do you want to spend 20 hours every week talking to customers and writing feature specifications and managing a backlog? Or do you want to do, you know, engineering?
Just because you could do the PM job doesn't mean that's an efficient use of your time, or what you enjoy doing.
Re: Andrew Ng says bottleneck in AI startups isn't coding – it's product management
#90"This tool 10x the productivity of software engineers" "GREAT! That means we can fire the people who do the actual work, and replace them with MBA robots, who neither understand nor care about making a good product" Pardon my pessimism, but in my whole career, I have never met a PM who actual did the work of driving the product vision. Most were just middlemen shuttling information between management, marketing, desi…
I am sorry you've had only negative experiences. Most of mine with PMs were negative as well, but a good one is a dragon slayer and bottleneck unclogger. They feel not like your manager, but like your servant, listening to exactly what you need, relaying messages accurately from other teams of what they need from you, and with the big picture perspective required for you not just to fulfill the task, but do it in a l…