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Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

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Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#81

Post by dgb23 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #49

I wonder how much of this difference is attributable to Swiss direct democracy, which teaches people to participate in the decision-making process, but it also teaches them that losing in a vote is natural, and that you in fact should have at least some position towards bigger projects, instead of ignoring 99 per cent of what is going on, because your position actually matters when the ballot is being counted. NIMBYs…

There's some truth in what you say, but unfortunately there are also NIMBY regulations in place that delay/prevent infrastructure projects. I would prefer if our direct votes would shield _better_ against those mechanisms.

However, I think the bigger cultural norm at play here is that public infrastructure is very cherished. We publicly own (at least 51% of each of) our energy companies, public transport system, telecommunications system etc. Long term planning and investment is also ingrained into our culture.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#82

Post by troupo »

bootsmann wrote: post #54
mrks_hy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article and can point out which part of the specific method would not work in the UK? There is nothing in the outlined strategy that would be made unworkable. You may reach a different value-engineered point, and it explicitly mentions cargo trains as well.

The long term commitment by the government works for Switzerland because the government is a permanent national unity coalition that has not changed in party composition for over 50 years. The fact that the people in power when things are planned will be the same that reap the rewards 4 elections later helps align politics for long term issues.

This reads as "the political parties in the UK are fully dysfunctional since they cannot plan for checks notes a decade ahead in country where average life expectancy is checks notes 81 years and the country itself has been around for checks notes 1500 years"

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#83

Post by eertami »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #18
dhfbshfbu4u3 wrote: post #5

The Swiss method works because their population is 6X smaller and GDP per capita is twice as high. They have a smaller geographic footprint and heavier services economy. The UK still has so much industrial traffic (inclusive of agriculture) and a far less cohesive political environment. This isn’t to say that HS2 isn’t a train wreck (haha - it is) but applying small country policies to big country problems is a a bit…

Not buying that. The argument made in TFA isn't that the Swiss method works because of population size or GDP per capita, but because the processes and goals are completely different. They work backwards from an agreed goal - written into law - that continuous improvement into infrastructure is a requirement of all governments, regardless of political bent. I actually don't think this is controversial, even in the UK…

> As a country the UK is so quick to dismiss initiatives from other countries that are shown to work there

I found British culture so depressingly defeatist that I stopped trying to argue for improvements and ended up moving away.

Switzerland isn't perfect but for day to day life it's just much easier to live in. I believe that's partly being a higher trust society but also higher ambition to make infrastructure and town planning improvements.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#84

Post by dgb23 »

jeffrallen wrote: post #9

This is an excellent analysis of how to avoid the curse of megaprojects. Heres a couple reactions based on the Swiss point of view. > keeps the supply chain warm Yes! And the human resources pool. And a constant supply of construction projects means every industry touched by them can keep a pipeline of apprentices in training. And lots of small projects means there are places where the risk is not so big of taking a…

The scale is certainly a challenging factor.

But in terms of trust: I think that's earned over time. Swiss people believe in decentralization of power, direct democracy and steady improvement, because it has proven to be stable. Inherently the Swiss are rather distrustful and cautious.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#85

Post by appointment »

crinkly wrote: post #77
ben_w wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, but it's also a goods corridor; the only way around both of those at the same time (absent massive depopulation) is to move the people, would mean building loads more houses.

The WCML is perfectly adequate for that. HS2 is a vanity project for business and general passenger travel, none of which is certain or impossible on the WCML already.

But the WCML is at capacity, so it is not in fact adequate.

"There is no available capacity without significantly impacting performance and causing a reduction in timetable resilience due to the resulting requirement for successive services to run on minimum headway"

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/wcml-capacity-...

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#86

Post by PetitPrince »

bootsmann wrote: post #54
mrks_hy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article and can point out which part of the specific method would not work in the UK? There is nothing in the outlined strategy that would be made unworkable. You may reach a different value-engineered point, and it explicitly mentions cargo trains as well.

The long term commitment by the government works for Switzerland because the government is a permanent national unity coalition that has not changed in party composition for over 50 years. The fact that the people in power when things are planned will be the same that reap the rewards 4 elections later helps align politics for long term issues.

Last time the proportion of the Federal Council was changed was 20-ish years ago, not over 50. But your broader point still stands as it's roughly the same parties (the "magic formula" is roughly proportional to the proportion of parties in the national council)(but also takes into account gender and language/region).

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#87

Post by owisd »

throw0101a wrote: post #33
Neil44 wrote: post #24

For me it's summed up by the £100M tunnel to protect bats. Someone says the nice bats in those nearby woods might not get on with the big scary trains so £100M gets spent to resolve the issue. Scale that kind of thinking up over the whole project including people who don't want HS2 at all using every legal angle imaginable to frustrate it and there's your £66Bn. There are no adults in the room saying you know what, t…

> For me it's summed up by the £100M tunnel to protect bats. Someone says […] That someone is Natural England, who is tasked, by law, with enforcing laws that protect wildlife and the environment and needs to sign off on disruptive work: > A spokesperson for HS2 Ltd said "multiple options" had been considered, including green bridges and restoring habitats, to "comply with laws protecting vulnerable species". > It sa…

> If you don't like it change the law

There is currently a bill going through Parliament to simplify this stuff - https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3946 - though not going so far as to remove all protections.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#88

Post by potato3732842 »

alistairSH wrote: post #80
potato3732842 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But the law says they have to" is just a fancy way of saying you've outsourced your morals to the legislature. The fact that there is a law saying this drag must be applied does not make it right. I'm fully aware we need to protect natural species, not create fire risks, etc, etc, but the idea that every project must incur cost to prove up front that it is complete is an asinine drag on everything, especially seeing…

you've outsourced your morals to the legislature That's basically the whole point of a representative government, no?

>That's basically the whole point of a representative government, no?

That attitude is the problem. They're supposed to represent you (or some approximation thereof) not tell you what to think. It's in the f-ing name.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#89

Post by Symbiote »

Neil44 wrote: post #24

For me it's summed up by the £100M tunnel to protect bats. Someone says the nice bats in those nearby woods might not get on with the big scary trains so £100M gets spent to resolve the issue. Scale that kind of thinking up over the whole project including people who don't want HS2 at all using every legal angle imaginable to frustrate it and there's your £66Bn. There are no adults in the room saying you know what, t…

Your comment has nothing to do with the article, or the differing approach of the Swiss (who I'm sure also have legal protection for endangered species).

> There are no adults in the room saying you know what, the value to life and society and the good that could be done with £100M of public money is worth more than the unproven possibility of a bat being injured.

Remember if these adults were in the room, the political cohort angry about the bat tunnel wouldn't have been able to stop low-traffic neighbourhood schemes, cycle paths, air-quality regulations, Manchester's congestion charge, etc.

Re: Swiss vs. UK approach to major tranport projects

#90

Post by octo888 »

> They pick a year in the future - 2045, say - and ask: what should the national train timetable look like then, if we want to meet our national objectives as a country?

I love this. In the UK we're currently in the middle of a ~25-30 year rail upgrade programme and if you ask what the new timetables will look like (i.e. tangible benefits), they look at you as if you had 3 heads.

They're too busy blowing their own trumpet any time they complete a minor piece of work to answer such nonsense questions.

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