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UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

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Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#81

Post by runsWphotons »

crinkly wrote: post #58
mcjiggerlog wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There oddly seems to be a concerted effort online to paint the UK as some kind of failing police state recently. This narrative seems to have really taken off with some Americans, who now seem completely convinced that the UK government is some kind of totalitarian oppressor who are snatching people off the streets. Meanwhile, Brits just look on at this narrative wondering what the hell they're talking about. Look, I…

If it was a police state, JD Vance wouldn’t be getting it on his holiday here from protesters and video vans driving around and being refused service in a pub. It could end up that way but we’re not there yet. If we do get there we tend to make the French look like amateur protestors (look up poll tax riots). I’m less worried about a police state than a corporate dystopia. The attendee list at Trump’s inauguration wo…

A politician disliked by the state facing criticism doesn't mean anything. What matters is when people say something the state doesn't approve of.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#82

Post by esskay »

ap99 wrote: post #18

For the Americans looking at this act, you're maybe putting it in the context of American politics and thinking who cares if the porn sites have my face or id. But in the UK you can be arrested and jailed for saying something online that offends someone else.

> But in the UK you can be arrested and jailed for saying something online that offends someone else.

It's hard to take this seriously, especially when if I ask for citations it'll likely be a couple of extremely obscure cases where the details are being conveniently glossed over.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#83

Post by extraisland »

khalic wrote: post #53
extraisland wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting for the alternatives won't make any difference either. The power structure is designed in such a way that it is difficult for the Government itself to do change anything.

Then create a new party, give talks about this, mobilize your friends, family, make them understand that civil liberty is literally worth dying for

I really get annoyed when someone suggests this (it not your fault). You are believing what you are told at school about how Politics works. Many of us understand this is unrealistic.

Here is an incomplete list of reasons why I would never get involved directly in politics:

1. It takes literally decades to get a political party off the ground without major backing. All the new parties that you hear of are bankrolled by elite backing.

2. The way the Government and the civil service is setup is designed so you can't actually make any changes. Dominic Cummings has many interviews he did in the last year you can find where he explains how Whitehall is fundamentally broken. I suggest you listen to them.

3. I have a chequed past. Most of my adult life I was abusing alcohol, and as a consequence of that I have done and said lots of stupid things. A good portion of my extended family are criminals (which I don't associate with for obvious reasons). If I or anything connected to me gain any public appeal at all, I would have all the muck which I've put behind me dragged up. I don't want to expose myself or my family to that.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#84

Post by khalic »

andai wrote: post #57
chii wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mass civil disobedience. Not riots.

What would that look like?

There is widely available literature analyzing public disobedience, I suggest you find some reliable source in your favorite learning media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#85

Post by esskay »

khalic wrote: post #53
extraisland wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting for the alternatives won't make any difference either. The power structure is designed in such a way that it is difficult for the Government itself to do change anything.

Then create a new party, give talks about this, mobilize your friends, family, make them understand that civil liberty is literally worth dying for

For a new political party to succeed in the uk you need millions in funding, and nobodys going to fund something that potentially affects their vast sums of money.

"Just start a new party and tell people about it" is perhaps the most misleading and flawed idea you could present unfortunately. There have been new parties, there are new parties at every general election, you never hear about them for good reason.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#86

Post by swarnie »

khalic wrote: post #66
tene80i wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the point being made is that you are saying England when it is the entire UK under discussion. You are missing out three of the four nations of the U.K.

Don’t they have their own governments of sorts? Also, I would never accuse Irish or Scott’s of being passive in their response to political changes…

England is the only one of the four without its own parliament.

Providing you accurately define the Irish in question all four are subject to the OSA, none have actively opposed it in any meaningful way.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#87

Post by nrawe »

nxm wrote: post #61
mcjiggerlog wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There oddly seems to be a concerted effort online to paint the UK as some kind of failing police state recently. This narrative seems to have really taken off with some Americans, who now seem completely convinced that the UK government is some kind of totalitarian oppressor who are snatching people off the streets. Meanwhile, Brits just look on at this narrative wondering what the hell they're talking about. Look, I…

What is happening in Britain is people are being actually arrested for “offensive” speech, which is of course subjective, subject to abuse, and open to totalitarian oppression. This is why the First Amendment in the US constitution is so important

I'm happy to be wrong, but I don't believe that's correct. There have been some people arrested for inciting violence via social media during the Southport riots.

There is also Tommy Robinson/Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, who has been remanded in custody for contempt of court for continuing to libel an immigrant even after his claims were proven to be false. And by contempt of court, he literally has produced a movie continuing to slander said immigrant for his own ends.

Another is Palestine Action being made a proscribed terror group. While lots of people, as evidenced by recent protests, see this as problematic, its not particularly different to other groups like environmental activists that commit criminal acts being proscribed and there are numerous examples UK/abroad of that. PA members at the direction of PA leadership have fallen into that category not because of their beliefs, but because of their actions – like breaking into Israeli-owned security research company with a van, and into an RAF base, in both cases committing vandalism and destruction of property.

Some people believe there is a problem, but there really isn't a legislative agenda against free speech.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#88

Post by foldr »

gambiting wrote: post #32
khalic wrote: post #9

What’s with england and its complete lack of response to this kind of power grabs?

I've lived in the UK for 15 years now and the complete political apathy is probably what bothers me the most about this country. Few years back when they made it so that every ISP had to log your entire browsing history and keep it for a year and 17 different government agencies(including DEFRA, the agriculture ministry!) can access it without a warrant, barely anyone cared. Wasn't really mentioned in public media, o…

>Few years back when they made it so that every ISP had to log your entire browsing history and keep it for a year

This is a significant exaggeration in two respects.

First, SSL ensures that ISPs cannot log your literal browser history. They can log which domains you visit, how often you visit them, how much data was transferred, etc. etc.

Second, the law requires ISPs to be able to retain this data on a specific individual for up to a year if specifically ordered to by the Home Secretary. So it is not the case the ISPs in general are all recording this information for all of their customers. From their point of view they have no interest in doing so. I suspect that ISPs would in fact lack the capacity to store all of this data for all of their customers all of the time.

I don't support the IPA because I don't think the Home Secretary should be able to directly order surveillance of specific individuals. However, I don't think it is necessary to exaggerate the scope of the legislation in order to make a case against it.

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#89

Post by khalic »

foldr wrote: post #75
khalic wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t they have their own governments of sorts? Also, I would never accuse Irish or Scott’s of being passive in their response to political changes…

The OSA applies to all of the UK.

Thx I didn’t know that, thank you

Re: UK government states that 'safety' act is about influence over public discourse

#90

Post by omnicognate »

Yeul wrote: post #78
mcjiggerlog wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There oddly seems to be a concerted effort online to paint the UK as some kind of failing police state recently. This narrative seems to have really taken off with some Americans, who now seem completely convinced that the UK government is some kind of totalitarian oppressor who are snatching people off the streets. Meanwhile, Brits just look on at this narrative wondering what the hell they're talking about. Look, I…

I'm not American and I find the English legal system hilarious. In practically all countries a bunch of smart people got together in the 19th century to write a constitution but the British thought that they were above such petty concerns.

Profound legal analysis there. The United States' experiences with its written constitution don't give me any reason to think one would be a good idea in the UK.
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