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Debian 13 “Trixie”

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Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#81

Post by bayindirh »

Santosh83 wrote: post #75
npteljes wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defaults matter a lot, and snaps are the default in Ubuntu. The topic is not whether snaps are avoidable or not, but the Ubuntu is going downhill. And snaps are purported to be part of that downhill, which would be Ubuntu's NIH syndrome. As far as I know, Ubuntu's only successful development is Ubuntu itself - the other projects have all failed over the years, and snap, while ongoing, is not winning any popularity co…

Snaps per se are no better or worse than flatpak. Canonical's mistake, IMO, was to make their store the only place snaps can be hosted. That is the "proprietary" bit everyone keeps talking about. But in practice even for flatpak the only realistic place you can publish your flatpak if you want any traction at all would be flathub, so both formats have only one store right now. But flatpak allows a custom store while…

Another problem is, Canonical promised to release server components and enable alternative stores, and just forgot that they made that pledge.

Also, rugpulling users and migrating things to snaps without asking their users in order to "create a positive pressure on snap team to keep their quality high" didn't sit well with the users.

> But in practice even for flatpak the only realistic place you can publish your flatpak if you want any traction at all would be flathub

But, for any size of fleet from homelab to an enterprise client farm, I can host my local flathub and install my personal special-purpose flatpaks without paying anyone and thinking whether my packages will be there next morning.

Freedom matters, esp. it that's the norm in that ecosystem.

I was neutral-ish about Ubuntu, but I flat out avoid them now, and migrate any remaining Ubuntu server to Debian in shortest way possible.

I'm using Debian for the last 20 years or so, BTW.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#82

Post by bayindirh »

john01dav wrote: post #78
bayindirh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus reduced support duration to increase adoption of Ubuntu Pro. Changing some packages ever slightly so they behave a little differently. Switch to sudo-rs, uu-coreutils (rust based stuff), etc., etc. It's not a Debian derivative anymore. It's something else. Was not my cup of tea before, it's even more not my cup of tea now.

Switching to rust-based system software is very different from the clearly profit seeking (or control seeking which is just long term profit seeking) changes like ads and snap (with massive friction to not using snap).

Yes, but I prefer glibc + GNU Coreutils based systems in my installations. They're additional nails on top of the (fatal) ones like snap, Ubuntu Pro and MOTD ads.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#83

Post by dschuessler »

krylon wrote: post #79

As an owner of two i386 systems (both netbooks built around Intel's Atom N270), that run Debian, I am a little sad. I understand the reasoning, and I won't deny it is a very niche platform by now. But I had hoped Debian, with a history of supporting a wide range of platforms, would keep i386 going for a while longer. Fortunately, bookworm will continue to receive updates for almost 3 years, so I am not in a hurry to…

Out of curiosity, what do you use these netbooks for?

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#84

Post by tremon »

binwiederhier wrote: post #30

Thank you to all the Debian volunteers that make Debian and all its derivatives possible. It's remarkable how many people and businesses have been enabled by your work. Thank you! On a personal note, Trixie is very exciting for me because my side project, ntfy [1], was packaged [2] and is now included in Trixie. I only learned about the fact that it was included very late in cycle when the package maintainer asked fo…

The maintainer has a short explanation here: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1098866#10

> The webapp is a nodejs app that requires packages that are not currently in debian.

Since vendoring dependencies inside packages is frowned upon in Debian, the maintainer would have needed to add those packages themselves and maintain them. My guess is that they didn't want to take on that effort.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#85

Post by KORraN »

b112 wrote: post #12
superkuh wrote: post #6

Biggest change for me is /tmp behavior. In Debian 13 /tmp become RAM-disk by default (instead of files on the file system) and uses up to 50% of available ram. But as expected of Debian the release notes included an easy fix to restore normal /tmp behavior for people and applications that place many small or large files there. https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.... >"You can return to /tmp be…

Also watch out for surprise file deletes in /tmp and /var/tmp at 10 and 30 days. This too can be turned off.

Isn't this the feature of /tmp? I set my default download location in Firefox to /tmp exactly for this reason, so that all the junk gets automatically removed after some time. Also, whenever I need a temporary Python script or test a package, I create a venv under /tmp.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#86

Post by prmoustache »

hiprob wrote: post #9

I can't believe we've come to such a high number, and a particularly lucky one at that Alas it's still not suitable as a daily driver for the average home user and probably never will be. It is unfortunate that Ubuntu has to reign supreme in that regard.

You can install debian and ubuntu with same DE and you'd be hard pressed to find a difference apart from the theme unless you are a power user who knows what snap is.

In fact, Ubuntu has never been an especially user friendly distro. At the beginning it was just a debian that was installed with debian's experimental installer before they decided to use it in stable. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you wanted to find a distro that was making efforts towards beginners looking for Gui config tools, you had to look at Suse and Mandrake (now Mandriva).

The only specific thing Ubuntu did for beginners is sending CDs for free at a time when not everybody had fast internet connections and would look for paper magazine to come with CD/DVD. And they have stopped doing that a loooooong time ago.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#87

Post by tremon »

toenail wrote: post #53
potato-peeler wrote: post #19

> The overall disk usage for trixie is 403,854,660 kB (403 GB) What does this mean? If all 69k+ packages are installed, it will take up this much space?

As this also lists lines of code, it sounds more like sources plus packages. Think space that a full mirror (src + generic + arch specific packages) would need.

Indeed, this is the amount of space that a Debian mirror would need to host all Trixie packages. So it's the compressed packages total size, not the space it would take to have all packages installed simultaneously (which also happens to be impossible, because of package conflicts/alternatives and Debian supporting 7+ different architectures).

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#88

Post by superkuh »

KORraN wrote: post #85
b112 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also watch out for surprise file deletes in /tmp and /var/tmp at 10 and 30 days. This too can be turned off.

Isn't this the feature of /tmp? I set my default download location in Firefox to /tmp exactly for this reason, so that all the junk gets automatically removed after some time. Also, whenever I need a temporary Python script or test a package, I create a venv under /tmp.

On boot has been the standard for a long time and is still the most common. I am personally surprised to hear that now Debian and some distros do it via various automated ways at time intervals.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#89

Post by curt15 »

bayindirh wrote: post #76
Santosh83 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, snap the package format is not proprietary. Its as open source as say flatpak. What is proprietary is Canonical official snap store, and they patch their version of snap to only use that store. It'd be the same as flatpak being tied to only flathub. Of course that goes against the spirit of FOSS, but there's a bit more nuance there than simply saying "snaps are proprietary".

Did they release the server components for hosting your own snap repositories, yet? I can't seem to find it. Any pointers would be helpful, so at least I can know the latest state of this thing.

Snapd still hardcodes Canonical's snap store signing key and provides no mechanism to add your own keys. Any other snap repos will be treated as second class citizens.

Re: Debian 13 “Trixie”

#90

Post by doublepg23 »

zvmaz wrote: post #44
ACS_Solver wrote: post #25

Writing this from my Debian system, it's a great distro that has been excellent to me as a daily driver. I switched to Debian 6 after Ubuntu went way downhill and haven't had cause to regret it. I like Debian's measured pragmatism with ideology, how it's a distro of free software by default but it also makes it easy to install non-free software or firmware blobs. I like Debian's package guidelines, I like dpkg, I lik…

> after Ubuntu went way downhill and haven't had cause to regret it. In what way Ubuntu went downhill?

I forget the exact context but I recall an Ubuntu dev stating they have more users of the Firefox snap alone than trendy distros have entire users.

I think it’s worth keeping that in mind with all the hate Ubuntu gets. Most users are just silently getting their work done on an LTS they update every two years.

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