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GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

bsky.app

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Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know how GPT architectures work, why would you think this?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44850753

Now I'm even more confused why you believe GPTs should be able to math. Even in a contrived example where each "b" gets its own token, there are several reasons why GPTs might not be able to correctly count the number of occurrences of a letter (without invoking a tool, obv).

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#83
What is fascinating here is the power of ironclad conviction. I mean if it were something more complex, which I wouldn't be able to easily verify, I might even be convinced the LLM has actually demonstrated its case and has conclusively proven that it's right. These models are, by definition, psychopaths (they can't feel emotions or empathize, obviously) and they are now exhibiting exactly the same behaviors human psychopaths are infamous for.

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#84
post #22

Isn't that just an artifact caused by the tokenization of the training and input data? See https://platform.openai.com/tokenizer https://github.com/openai/tiktoken

Where in the tokenization does the 3rd b come from?

The tokenisation means they don’t see the letters at all. They see something like this - to convert just some tokens to words

How many 538 do you see in 423, 4144, 9890?

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#85
post #3

“It’s like talking to a PhD level expert” -Sam Altman https://www.youtube.com/live/0Uu_VJeVVfo?si=PJGU-MomCQP1tyPk

A lot of people confuse access to information with being smart. Because for humans it correlates well - usually the smart people are those that know a lot of facts and can easily manipulate them on demand, and the dumb people are those that can not. LLMs have unique capability of being both very knowledgeable (as in, able to easily access vast quantities of information, way beyond the capabilities of any human, PhD or not) and very dumb, they way a kindergarten kid wouldn't be. It totally confuses all our heuristics.

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#86
post #59

I just tried it and sure enough, 3 Bs. But which the model to "ChatGPT 5 Thinking" and it gets the answer right. Is that where we're going with this? The user has to choose between fast and dumb or slow and right?

Isn't that usually the choice for most things?

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#87

I think a lot of those trick questions outputting stupid stuff can be explained by simple economics. It's just not sustainable for OpenAI to run GPT at the best of its abilities on every request. Their new router is not trying to give you the most accurate answer, but a balance of speed/accuracy/sustainable cost on their side. (kind of) a similar thing happened when 4o came out, they often tinkered with it and the re…

This is not a demonstration of a trick question. This is a demonstration of a system that delusionally refuses to accept correction and correct its misunderstanding (which is a thing that is fundamental to their claim of intelligence through reasoning). Why would anyone believe these things can reason, that they are heading towards AGI, when halfway through a dialogue where you're trying to tell it that it is wrong i…

> This is not a demonstration of a trick question.

It's a question that purposefully uses a limitation of the system. There are many such questions for humans. They are called trick questions. It is not that crazy to call it a trick question.

> This is a demonstration of a system that delusionally refuses to accept correction and correct its misunderstanding (which is a thing that is fundamental to their claim of intelligence through reasoning).

First, the word 'delusional' is strange here unless you believe we are talking about a sentient system. Second, you are just plain wrong. LLMs are not "unable to accept correction" at all, in fact they often accept incorrect corrections (sycophanty). In this case the model is simply unable to understand the correction (because of the nature of the tokenizer) and it is therefore 'correct' behaviour for it to insist on it's incorrect answer.

> Why would anyone believe these things can reason, that they are heading towards AGI, when halfway through a dialogue where you're trying to tell it that it is wrong it doubles down with a dementia-addled explanation about the two bs giving the word that extra bounce?

People believe the models can reason because they produce output consistent with reasoning. (That is not to say they are flawless or we have AGI in our hands.) If you don't agree, provide a definition of reasoning that the model does not meet.

> Why would you offer up an easy out for them like this? You're not the PR guy for the firm swimming in money paying million dollar bonuses off what increasingly looks, at a fundamental level, like castles in the sand. Why do the labour?

This, like many of your other messages, is rather obnoxious and dripping with performative indignation while adding little in the way of substance.

Re: GPT-5: "How many times does the letter b appear in blueberry?"

#90
post #22

Isn't that just an artifact caused by the tokenization of the training and input data? See https://platform.openai.com/tokenizer https://github.com/openai/tiktoken

No, it's the entire architecture of the model. There's no real reasoning. It seems that reasoning is just a feedback loop on top of existing autocompletion. It's really disingenuous for the industry to call warming tokens for output, "reasoning," as if some autocomplete before more autocomplete is all we needed to solve the issue of consciousness. Edit: Letter frequency apparently has just become another scripted out…

> There's no real reasoning. It seems that reasoning is just a feedback loop on top of existing autocompletion.

I like to say that if regular LLM "chats" are actually movie scripts being incrementally built and selectively acted-out, then "reasoning" models are a stereotypical film noir twist, where the protagonist-detective narrates hidden things to himself.

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