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Gleam v1.12

github.com

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Re: Gleam v1.12

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter I see.

As I said, several of these would fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. A pretty narrow claim that I would certainly not accept about a site I was moderating.

Ok, but if you read the "wolf in sheeps clothing" party program of the nazi party and put it in the context of the aftermath of what the party actually did, you'd realize that they don't actually care about their program and only ever used it as a wedge to blame outgroups for the ills of society.

What I'm trying to say here is that the nazis were outwardly role playing socialists to appease workers, but when it was time to punish the "capitalists" they didn't seem to care whether they were actually capitalists and were more interested in whether a person was part of the ingroup (=white christian Germans) or not. In other words, if capitalism or market economies are rigged, then they only care about whether the economic system is rigged in favor of the ingroup.

The reason why I'm responding to you is that the barrier to a nazi accusation is essentially zero these days and most anti-fascists I've encountered are essentially the spitting mirror image of fascism. They declare an outgroup, but call it nazi this time. Then the anti-fascist logic allows the justification of infinite retaliation. Any shred of being principled is completely thrown out the window.

Because nazis controlled all of Germany for a time, they've done a lot of things that can be attributed to them, which means there are a lot of things you can take about any ordinary person and create a very loose nazi association through motivated reasoning.

Note that in a mirror image, left and right are swapped. They're not the same, but they are eerily similar.

Yep, these days you can be fed Youtube shorts of people arguing the Green Party in Germany are Nazis, while there is an actual party (AfD) that puts hidden hitler moustaches on Alice Weidel in their official fliers. That same party claims Adolf Hitler was a leftist and leftism is bad, which is good, because they're not leftists, but they also happen to like Adolf Hitler.

Re: Gleam v1.12

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, several of these would fit cleanly into the historical nazi party's platform. A pretty narrow claim that I would certainly not accept about a site I was moderating.

Ok, but if you read the "wolf in sheeps clothing" party program of the nazi party and put it in the context of the aftermath of what the party actually did, you'd realize that they don't actually care about their program and only ever used it as a wedge to blame outgroups for the ills of society. What I'm trying to say here is that the nazis were outwardly role playing socialists to appease workers, but when it was t…

[deleted]

Re: Gleam v1.12

#83
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

snake case convention is the only thing that always feels odd to me. Perhaps its because I deal in TypeScript all day, every day, but it never stuck with me. That said, small price to pay for a very nice runtime!

I come from a background where everything is camelCase. Naturally I wrote my JSON this way as well, among other things. Switching to snake_case was challenging at first - I kept writing things in camelCase. Now, I've become pretty fond of snake_case and have a tough time going back into environments that require camelCase - funny thing, that is. Thankfully Gleam's build tool/language server has a fairly strongly opin…

One thing I disliked is black, the Python formatter, with its utterly naive rules, that treat all code the same. It required me to workaround in many places, like always using a trailing comma for any list or tuple, to keep the items on separate lines, instead of black fumbling around and putting them on the same line. It was utterly annoying. This made me very vary of "opinionated" (read: inflexible unconfigurable pieces of software) formatters. Hopefully Gleam's formatter isn't as stupid as black is.

Re: Gleam v1.12

#84
post #80
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to point out, this conversation has been had over and over, on HN, in the Gleam Discord, and I'm sure in many other places as well - always spurred by the same statement on the Gleam website. So instead of discussing one of the most beautiful programming languages ever created, we're discussing politics, virtues, and wannabe Nazis. Because of a single sentence on the website... I don't care either way, bu…

I haven't seen any of the previous iterations of the conversation, nor have I had a chance to try Gleam (though it is on my short list!). > greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language But it might be an important goal for the community.

I don't believe even a little bit the success of the community has anything to do with this sentence on the website. The success of the community belongs to the relentless hard work of Louis et al.

The sentence is a source of continuous friction between the language, community, and public. It just seems so... unnecessary.

Half of this thread was consumed with people discussing politics and virtues instead of the v1.12 release - that is a pretty large problem for the language, objectively.

When people google Gleam, they'll find pages/discussions like this instead of people discussing the merits of certain syntax or libraries, new features and the like.

There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views.

Re: Gleam v1.12

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, it seems like everyone should have learned lessons from the sordid scala and node drama incidents, but instead they're just forgotten. Don't make in groups and out groups. Just have a "be nice" rule and leave it at that.

The trouble is that nazis think it's very nice to get rid of the untouchables. Life is messy, you've got to set some boundaries and stick to them or jerks gum up the works.

Then they're evidently not being nice to the ones they deem untouchables, and can be expelled.

Re: Gleam v1.12

#86
post #84
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any of the previous iterations of the conversation, nor have I had a chance to try Gleam (though it is on my short list!). > greeting curious potential new users with any particular brand of politics (righteous or not) is possibly antithetical to the goals of the language But it might be an important goal for the community.

I don't believe even a little bit the success of the community has anything to do with this sentence on the website. The success of the community belongs to the relentless hard work of Louis et al. The sentence is a source of continuous friction between the language, community, and public. It just seems so... unnecessary. Half of this thread was consumed with people discussing politics and virtues instead of the v1.1…

Your metrics for community success might be misaligned with those of the community stewards.

There's more room for interpretation in "all backgrounds, genders, and experience levels are welcome and respected equally" than with the explicit stated support for BLM, trans rights, and anti-nazi ideologies. Room for interpretation on codes of conduct make for more moderation work, allowing more undesirable behaviours to crop up.

> There's a reason most businesses/organizations don't engage in politics... even if the founders have very strong political views

Yes, but that might not be the goals of the Gleam stewards. Maybe they would rather take a moral stance even if it hurts Gleam's reach.

Re: Gleam v1.12

#89
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not used it at all, but Gleam does have a javascript target in it's compiler/build-tool. So in theory, you can write Gleam (strongly typed, etc) and produce js. I've exclusively used the BEAM/Erlang target so far - but the js community within Gleam seems quite interesting.

I've been considering trying this, but my team already struggles to properly adopt TypeScript so I'm fairly sure introducing Gleam would cause a few people to throw me out a window.

;)

Re: Gleam v1.12

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer Elixir's syntax over Gleam's, but my main issue with Gleam is architectural. Specifically, Gleam had to bastardize BEAM and OTP to implement static typing. To me, static typing vs. dynamic typing is like having a shelf with a doily vs. one without a doily (the shelf works fine either way), so messing up a solid Actor Model implementation, for instance, for the sake of static typing seems like the wrong thing…

How does it bastardize the beam? Like are there things you can do in elixir/erlang that you couldn’t with gleam?

It has been a while since I looked at Gleam. Some things may have changed. However, the last time I used Gleam, I was forced to switch back to Elixir because Gleam:

• Lacks support for named processes.

• Has limited actor abstractions.

• Doesn't support OTP system messages.

• Has implemented supervisors in a way that can lead to improper shutdowns, data loss, and deviations from the expected BEAM behavior.

• Doesn't support pattern matching directly in function definitions. Instead, it requires you to use case statements.

• Doesn't support global mutable variables because it has no way to track variable types and state changes when BEAM modifies these variables, which is one of the hallmark features of BEAM.

• Doesn't support hot code reloading.

All of these features, which are readily available in Erlang and Elixir, are far more important to me than static typing. I've used statically typed languages like C, C++, C#, and Java, and dynamically typed languages like Python, Ruby, and Elixir throughout my 30+ years career. I've never once lamented not having static types, nor have I ever jumped for joy when I do. For me, static vs. dynamic typing is largely irrelevant and doesn't affect my work one way or the other.

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