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'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

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Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#81

Post by ryandrake »

daft_pink wrote: post #80
habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

FYI, there are actual laws setting limits on bikes. Generally most places in the USA will allow a Class 1 or Class 2 e-bike to be ridden anywhere a bike can be ridden legally and some allow Class 3 with more restrictions. Class 1 is pedal assist maximum 20 mph assisted and class 2 throttle assist up to 20 mph with pedal assist allowed and if you pedal harder yourself it’s okay. Class 3 is pedal assist up to 28 mph, b…

The USA solution to problems that are already addressed by unenforced laws is to just write even more laws that will inevitably be unenforced.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#82

Post by Dylan16807 »

throw0101c wrote: post #78
Dylan16807 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now adjust things so the driver weighs more than the car and we'll be close to motorcycle territory. And even here it's like 6 versus 8 seconds for 0 to 60.

So the Miata gets there faster even with a >20% power disadvantage. I think that shows why power-weight is important.

It does something, but it's not so important when you make the weight difference smaller and then strap on a rider that weighs more than the vehicle.

I'm asking why there's some kind of significant safety issue and why it's around .1kW/kg vehicle weight in particular, not whether it does anything whatsoever.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#83

Post by ryandrake »

arp242 wrote: post #58
rib3ye wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

Super73's own webpage advertises it as a "high performance electric motorbike". I don't know what the strict legal definition is and I'll take your word for it that "pedals directly connected to a chain" is the one. However, for all intents and purposes in every-day conversation, "electric motorcycle" seems accurate to me. These things are between 27 and 37kg, depending on the model. You can cycle them, but it's obvi…

Whenever you rely on some strict legal definition of a "thing," you're going to have enterprising people make that "thing" not be a "thing" by walking right up to the legal line but just barely not crossing it. This discussion reminds me of the clever ways gun manufacturers get around California's "fixed mag" gun laws to make California-legal AR-15s: When you separate the upper and lower receiver, what you have is technically no longer a gun. Therefore, the mag can be removable from that thing that is definitely not-a-gun. So all the gun manufacturer has to do is provide a mechanism that quickly allows you to separate the upper and lower receivers, reload the mag, and then quickly re-connect the receivers. Skilled shooters can do this in under a second.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#84

Post by daft_pink »

ryandrake wrote: post #81
daft_pink wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, there are actual laws setting limits on bikes. Generally most places in the USA will allow a Class 1 or Class 2 e-bike to be ridden anywhere a bike can be ridden legally and some allow Class 3 with more restrictions. Class 1 is pedal assist maximum 20 mph assisted and class 2 throttle assist up to 20 mph with pedal assist allowed and if you pedal harder yourself it’s okay. Class 3 is pedal assist up to 28 mph, b…

The USA solution to problems that are already addressed by unenforced laws is to just write even more laws that will inevitably be unenforced.

Agreed. To be fair though, I think the purpose of the laws was to make it clear that e-bikes could be operated legally anywhere you can legally operate a bicycle, and that you could own and operate them in public without fear of police intervention or seizure like a go kart or other unregulated powered vehicle is subject to.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#85

Post by shkkmo »

Sayrus wrote: post #77
shkkmo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've misunderstood that law. > By law, an electric bicycle is a bicycle that (1) has operable foot pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts and (2) qualifies as a class 1, class 2, or class 3 bicycle https://www.cga.ct.gov/2024/rpt/pdf/2024-R-0154.pdf

Thanks, I also edited the answer. That also gives context to the sentence in the article: > Connecticut already uses the common three-class system that codifies legal e-bikes as up to 20 mph (32 km/h) and 750W (one horsepower) for Class 1 and 2, or up to 28 mph (45 km/h) for Class 3 e-bikes. So these device are already not street-legal and not allowed to be sold as e-bikes, right? Even at 30mph they aren't classified…

You are correct that the mention of the new law doesn't really make sense in the context of the article.

The currently state of affairs is that "e-bikes" with more than 750W didn't have a legal classification. They couldn't be treated as motorized bicycles or motorcycles under state law so were it seems they were probably legally limited to private property in Connecticut.

This law seems to expand access as to where these kinds of devices can be legally used, so it doesn't make immediate sense in the context of the article. My best guess for actual relevancy is that it also effectively expands the penalties for using them illegally (i.e. in bike paths or without the appropriate license or insurance) since they now qualify legally as a motor vehicle.

Not a lawyer, just an enthusiast who tries to understand the changing regulatory landscape for my hobby.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#86

Post by [deleted] »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

[deleted]

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#87

Post by BobaFloutist »

pizzalife wrote: post #73
Dylan16807 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?

The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.

On the other hand, getting hit by a 20kg bike would hurt a lot less than a 40kg bike at the same speed.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#88

Post by tim333 »

throw0101c wrote: post #13

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en…

I ride an EU rule ebike. It's good on the whole but I think they could go to 500W or 750W and still keep the 15.5mph. It's quick on the flat but on any sort of hill it struggles and drops to more like 5 mph, or needs pedaling.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#89

Post by ponector »

throw0101c wrote: post #13

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en…

Those are good rules, but are loosely enforced. Usual Uber eats bike courier has one of that overpowered ebikea and are the worse users of bike lanes.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#90

Post by [deleted] »

zaphar wrote: post #79
RhysU wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.

Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.

[deleted]
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