Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

nhpr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 445 posts

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#81

Post by gmueckl »

giantg2 wrote: post #72
Filmatic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military personnel generally can’t carry at all on post/base without a specific need. Nor keep private firearms at home, if on base/post housing. This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely.

"This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely." Yes, most people will feel quite safe in a secured facility with controlled access, simialar to court houses. Imagine living in a place where everyone has been vetted and the perimeter is secured with armed guards.

There are tons of incidents with intruders on military bases where I am from. They are atrractive targets for criminals like thieves, too. Guards aren't a very effective deterrent.

Also, everyone I talked to who found suspicious activity while on guard duty confessed to me that they were terrified in the moment even though they were trying to project authority on the outside.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#82

Post by eYrKEC2 »

tshaddox wrote: post #65
katmannthree wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you're going to carry, you should choose something that's safe to carry with a round chambered (i.e. not a Sig P320). There are countless videos showing real-world examples of defensive handgun use. One common thread is that there's virtually no time between when you realize you're going to need your sidearm and when you need it. The extra second it takes to rack the slide and chamber a round can be the di…

> One common thread is that there's virtually no time between when you realize you're going to need your sidearm and when you need it. I would be surprised if this is true for the majority of situations. I'm sure there are situations where you have very little time, but also many situations where the additional time it would take to chamber a round is negligible.

In addition to the lost time, you'll have a hard time racking the slide from the adrenaline dump. Also, the bad guys always have first-movers advantage and you're always playing catch up.

After watching thousands of violent encounters on John Correia's "Active Self Protection" channel, I agree that round-in-the-chamber is absolutely necessary if you're carrying for self protection.

https://www.youtube.com/@ActiveSelfProtection

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#83

Post by cityzen »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #79
dcrazy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately. A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.

> the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)

[flagged]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#84

Post by eYrKEC2 »

fmbb wrote: post #80
nosignono wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you draw from concealment, an experienced shooter needs only get their grip and an eye picture -- point gun at target and fire. You only need to train muscle memory to get into a firing position, which is also what you are regularly training every time you live fire or dry fire. If you don't have a round chambered, you need to draw, rack and release the slide, hope a round is properly chambered (in a panicked si…

I’m a panicked position maybe you should not fire a gun. If you cannot even chamber a round who’s to say you can hit what you want to hit?

You're right, you should wait for the police, because when seconds matter, the police are minutes away.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#85

Post by 0x457 »

fmbb wrote: post #80
nosignono wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you draw from concealment, an experienced shooter needs only get their grip and an eye picture -- point gun at target and fire. You only need to train muscle memory to get into a firing position, which is also what you are regularly training every time you live fire or dry fire. If you don't have a round chambered, you need to draw, rack and release the slide, hope a round is properly chambered (in a panicked si…

I’m a panicked position maybe you should not fire a gun. If you cannot even chamber a round who’s to say you can hit what you want to hit?

Well, at a range, sometimes can't properly rack the slide and still hit everything I wanted to hit. I got used to doing lock/release instead due to that skill issue.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#86

Post by SauciestGNU »

OneMorePerson wrote: post #68
homefree wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was in the holster, most people don't teach that the muzzle direction rule applies (since in the holster it's supposed to be inert). A lot of carry methods have the muzzle pointing at things you would not want it pointing at when unholstered.

Yeah agreed. If people taught this than thigh holsters would be out (muzzle direction when sitting down), so would shoulder holsters. Pretty reasonable to expect a gun to not go off randomly, especially when reliable drop safety mechanisms have been around for a long time.

There's a joke about appendix carry of Sig pistols providing cheap bottom surgery for mtf trans people.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#87

Post by andrewmcwatters »

kgermino wrote: post #76
giantg2 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford made the Pinto. The Volt or Bolt from GM had battery fires. I believe Tesla has had multiple safety and quality issues come up.

May be my age, but I wouldn't say any of those brands are a mark of quality. Rather the opposite in fact. They are all interesting in their own way (especially Tesla), but certainly not quality/reliability-first organizations.

Ford, GM, and Tesla are all bottom barrel automakers. All three of them relying on the government to prop them up, too. Otherwise, the Japanese market would have obliterated the American automotive industry ages ago.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#88

Post by SilasX »

kstrauser wrote: post #44
giantg2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be crazy when they're completely separate systems?

All I know about this situation is what I've read in these comments just now. I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I think the surprise is that a company who makes something considered highly reliable would make a similar item that the Air Force claims is killing their airmen. It'd be like Toyota making another pickup, the Bellevue, that likes to randomly explode. Sure, things happen, but Toyota ? Huh, that would be…

Not sure that's the best example, since Toyota did have the unintended acceleration issue, though I still don't get whether the consensus among smart people was that it was purely user error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932011_Toyota_vehic...

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#89

Post by unethical_ban »

hollywood_court wrote: post #31
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #17

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322. I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.

Yeah, just from a reputational standpoint I'm not sure I ever want to buy a Sig unless it's used. Too many other good brands to financially support. I've been eyeing a Canik or Walther, I want a premium trigger. The CZs are reliable weapons, but their trigger feels "gritty" to me. My Sig SP2022 is my favorite trigger of the guns I own.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#90

Post by jeremyjh »

giantg2 wrote: post #74
nosignono wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.

"The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk." If they can prove this in the investigation, this completely sinks Sig's defense that this can't happen with the upgraded FCU that they released to supposedly fix this issue since it's in all military variants.

There is a good chance there is security video coverage. Sig is cooked along with whoever their fanboys are in senior command. Hopefully that means the P226 Legion comes down in price :D
Post reply on HN