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Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

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Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#81

Post by lenerdenator »

fsckboy wrote: post #70
missedthecue wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will probably have to look something like western Europe with massive across the board tax increases. I make $60k a year in the USA and my tax rates are about 12%, with no VAT. They'd probably need to look more like France, where a $60k income is hit with a 42% effective tax (adjusted for progressive rates) before 20% VAT is paid at the store.

vat is simply corporate income tax, it's a tax on "value added", i.e. profit or income. I don't know in europe whether that is on top of other corporate income tax or not.

And they then pass that expense off to the consumer, because praise be to the shareholders.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#82

Post by ac29 »

WalterBright wrote: post #64
Buttons840 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that extending that Trump tax cuts is not a tax cut, because it's only extending and maintaining the status quo? Or are you saying the Trump tax cuts never benefited the wealthy at all?

> Are you saying that extending that Trump tax cuts is not a tax cut? Of course. It's disingenuous to claim that not raising taxes is a "cut". It's the same lie as claiming a reduction in a spending increase is a "budget cut". There are actual tax cuts in Trump's bill, but they don't apply to the wealthy.

They cut taxes for the years 2026 and later. The TCJA tax cuts expire this year.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#83

Post by Buttons840 »

lenerdenator wrote: post #81
fsckboy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vat is simply corporate income tax, it's a tax on "value added", i.e. profit or income. I don't know in europe whether that is on top of other corporate income tax or not.

And they then pass that expense off to the consumer, because praise be to the shareholders.

Companies can just raise prices without consequences? Is that free market competition in action?

Snark aside. I've always heard the idea was that free markets and competition would drive down prices, and that if a company was to just raise their prices, they would actually lose money because people would buy from a competitor with better prices. Turns out companies can just raise prices though. What does it mean when the things that happen in a healthy free market aren't happening?

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#84

Post by Buttons840 »

WalterBright wrote: post #64
Buttons840 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that extending that Trump tax cuts is not a tax cut, because it's only extending and maintaining the status quo? Or are you saying the Trump tax cuts never benefited the wealthy at all?

> Are you saying that extending that Trump tax cuts is not a tax cut? Of course. It's disingenuous to claim that not raising taxes is a "cut". It's the same lie as claiming a reduction in a spending increase is a "budget cut". There are actual tax cuts in Trump's bill, but they don't apply to the wealthy.

Can we agree that the taxes on the wealthy would be higher if the BBB was not passed?

It's not a "cut", it's just that the BBB makes taxes lower for the wealthy than they would have been without the BBB .

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#85

Post by Buttons840 »

fsckboy wrote: post #72
Buttons840 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t tax the rich enough to pay off the debt. They already pay the overwhelming majority of taxes. Yes. This means that if we double the taxes on the wealthy we will roughly double our total taxes collected. A neat trick. It's true that the top 50% pay 97% of taxes, but that's not the slam dunk you think it is, because the top 50% have 97.5% of the wealth (see sources). Your suggestion to tax the poor is stupi…

> Yes. This means that if we double the taxes on the wealthy we will roughly double our total taxes collected. A neat trick. no, you won't, people change their financial decisions in the face of taxes. increasing taxes will slow the economy, bringing in a change of party in the whitehouse and congress, and taxes will be lowered again. high taxes don't work, and people don't like them. > It's true that the top 50% pay…

Taxes are on whatever we want to tax.

Instead of taxing income or spending, tax wealth. Will the wealthy make themselves less wealthy in order to avoid a wealth tax? I don't think so. Tax the top 1%; even with a wealth tax they'll still be able to afford multiple homes and a yacht--hell, there are people who can afford two homes and a yacht and don't even fall in the top 1%, so people will still be able to have plenty without ever actually paying a wealth tax.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#86

Post by WalterBright »

FreakLegion wrote: post #77
WalterBright wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax cuts for the wealthy were not in the BBB.

The BBB increased the QSBS exclusion and gross asset value limit by 50% and quadrupled the SALT deduction, among other things. I guess you could argue the meaning of "for the wealthy" here, but it would be hard to do in good faith.

> it would be hard to do in good faith

QSBS is capped, and the SALT deduction goes away with increasing MAGI. They're targeted at the upper middle class, not the wealthy.

The "S" in QSBS stands for "Small" business.

The previous limits were fixed, and this change seems to be adjusting it for inflation. It's been around since 1993. An inflation adjustment is not a "cut".

Even so, as I'm sure you're aware, these two items are not what people mean by "tax cuts for the wealthy". If you ask anyone (other than a tax accountant) what a QSBS deduction is, you'll get a blank stare.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#87

Post by conception »

general1726 wrote: post #74
daveland wrote: post #2

Full Title : Why Does Raising the Retirement Age Hurt Young People? What Would It Take to Start/Restart Their Careers? Turns out trying to get people to retire later is a bad idea

Unless you are having state pensions and taking money from taxable population and giving it to pensioners. This group keeps getting bigger thanks to constantly improving medical care, while taxable population is getting smaller thanks to declining birthrates. Cutting pensions would probably cause massive riots, so raising retirement age is only logical way forward to keep this social pyramid scheme alive a little bit…

There are lots of ways. Looking at ss specifically - https://www.crfb.org/socialsecurityreformer/

Social Security will be solvent over the next 75 years, but 16% of the gap between spending and revenue remains in the 75th year, meaning the program is not yet sustainable.

YOUR POLICY SELECTIONS % OF GAP CLOSED

Slow Benefit Growth for Top 20% Of Earners 11% Limit Spousal Benefits for High Earners 3% Create Minimum Benefit at 125% of Poverty -3% Means-Test Benefits for Higher Earners 16% Tax All Wages Above $400,000 67% Apply the Payroll Tax to "Cafeteria Plans" 10% TOTAL 104%

And I increased benefits.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#88

Post by WalterBright »

Buttons840 wrote: post #84
WalterBright wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that extending that Trump tax cuts is not a tax cut? Of course. It's disingenuous to claim that not raising taxes is a "cut". It's the same lie as claiming a reduction in a spending increase is a "budget cut". There are actual tax cuts in Trump's bill, but they don't apply to the wealthy.

Can we agree that the taxes on the wealthy would be higher if the BBB was not passed? It's not a "cut", it's just that the BBB makes taxes lower for the wealthy than they would have been without the BBB .

The BBB repealed the tax increase, yes. That's not a cut, because the increase didn't happen.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#89

Post by fsckboy »

Buttons840 wrote: post #85
fsckboy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. This means that if we double the taxes on the wealthy we will roughly double our total taxes collected. A neat trick. no, you won't, people change their financial decisions in the face of taxes. increasing taxes will slow the economy, bringing in a change of party in the whitehouse and congress, and taxes will be lowered again. high taxes don't work, and people don't like them. > It's true that the top 50% pay…

Taxes are on whatever we want to tax. Instead of taxing income or spending, tax wealth. Will the wealthy make themselves less wealthy in order to avoid a wealth tax? I don't think so. Tax the top 1%; even with a wealth tax they'll still be able to afford multiple homes and a yacht--hell, there are people who can afford two homes and a yacht and don't even fall in the top 1%, so people will still be able to have plent…

the stock market returns on average 7%. a 50% tax on on income means the stock market effectively returns 3.5%

a wealth tax of 1% reduces the return on the stock market for that year to 6%, but it compounds onto follow-on years; if you "wealth tax" every year, that effectively lowers the return on the market very dramatically. If the returns on the stock market are lowered dramatically, you will see a huge slowdown in the economy.

the point of this is, there isn't really such a thing as a "wealth tax", it's just a "multiplied income tax". it might be different in your head, but you're wrong, it's not different in reality. you are welcome for the free education.

the question is, why is the only thing you can think of "take money from people who have it". that's a zero sum game, no wealth creation. What makes market economies so wonderful to live in is their wealth creation.

Why does Elon have so much money? wealth creation. Here's why: without Tesla, the roads would not be empty of cars, people would just buy different cars. There are other car companies, GM, Ford, Nissan, Honda, Volkswagen, etc.

Tesla is not taking your money. Tesla is offering an alternative car to buy with your money. With no Tesla, you would plunk your money down on one of those other brands, but if you like Tesla's better, you buy one of those. That creates happiness, you are happier spending your money on a Tesla than on the alternatives. That's the money that Elon is collecting, GM's money and some extra for your excitement/satisfaction. And he deserves it because he created it and you are happy that he did. You would not be richer without Tesla. You would buy a different brand, and be out the same amount of money, and enjoy your car less. So when you think "we need to take Elon's money" you are essentially saying "I wish Elon didn't exist and I want the crappy Nissan for less money". That's a spiral into the ground because the other company's don't put as much value into their cars as Tesla and if you paid them less, they'd produce less.

If your response to this is "I would never buy a Tesla, I don't even like them", then I will just shake my head sadly at your inability to learn even more.

Re: Why does raising the retirement age hurt young people?

#90

Post by FreakLegion »

WalterBright wrote: post #86
FreakLegion wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBB increased the QSBS exclusion and gross asset value limit by 50% and quadrupled the SALT deduction, among other things. I guess you could argue the meaning of "for the wealthy" here, but it would be hard to do in good faith.

> it would be hard to do in good faith QSBS is capped, and the SALT deduction goes away with increasing MAGI. They're targeted at the upper middle class, not the wealthy. The "S" in QSBS stands for "Small" business. The previous limits were fixed, and this change seems to be adjusting it for inflation. It's been around since 1993. An inflation adjustment is not a "cut". Even so, as I'm sure you're aware, these two it…

QSBS is only capped for sweat equity. My Series A lead gets a $200m exclusion. With the new $75m asset limit, the Series B lead will probably triple that.

Things like QSBS and carried interest are absolutely part of what people mean by "tax cuts for the wealthy".

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