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Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

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Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not American. This is the first time I'm hearing either "demographics is destiny" or "coalition of the ascendant". "Demographics is destiny" seems to be a quote from a french philosopher from the 1800s, while "coalition of the ascendant" seems to be a description of the coalition Obama sought to build in his second term, an idea swiftly dismantled in 2016. The articles I can find discussing these things don't con…

> "Demographics is destiny" seems to be a quote from a french philosopher from the 1800s, while "coalition of the ascendant" seems to be a description of the coalition Obama sought to build in his second term, an idea swiftly dismantled in 2016. But what was the nature of "the coalition Obama sought to build in his second term?" Normally, political coalitions are based on things like geography or economic classes. Bu…

> the last gasp of the old America before it was washed away by demographic change.

I have heard commentators mention ideas along those lines (never the specific formulations you used as examples, but the general vibe) post 2016, and even a little before that. That is, to me, not the same as that being the policy. Post 2016 democrats needed a cope. They needed a hope to hold on to after they had lost, what to them seemed like a slam dunk. That's not a policy proposal, but rather a strategic observation. In general I think you're better served by listening to politicians when they are trying to build, than when they have failed in building.

I also think it's quite important to note that in that analysis, we presuppose that immigrants will like the democrats. That either requires that democrat policies are good for immigrants, and immigrants to recognize that, or a vast conspiracy to take America down. If demographic change would turn America into a third world country, as some commentators have argued, surely immigrants wouldn't be for that either.

> But I think it's totally fair to say that Republicans have a policy of giving tax cuts to rich people because it inures to their political benefit.

I surely don't hope it's that direct. I think it's fair to talk about the cause and effect, but it would be totally unfair to characterize it as naked corruption. I truly believe that the mainstream American republicans believe in tax cuts as a means to drive innovation. That they believe in slimming down the government from a place of ideology, and not simply a naked ploy to reduce the oversight of their sponsors' activities. That they believe their policies to increase the wealth of the regular American, which they then hope will make them vote Republican.

I worry that this is no longer true of the "far right"/"alt right"/"authoritarian right". That distinction, between doing something for a belief in a better world, and doing it purely for strategy to gain power, is where I place the line to "fascism". A definition I don't share with many scholars.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#82
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, foreign students subsidize public universities by paying full sticker price for tuition, whereas US students are either in state (paying less) or often receive scholarships and support. Foreign students are not stealing “slots” from Americans. If anything, their tuition dollars make more slots available.

In some countries foreign students are charged a higher price for a course than domestic students.

That includes USA. Most programs charge foreign students more as they don't get any state subsidies.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#83
post #28
post #4

[flagged]

Please don’t do this on HN. Even before LLMs were commonplace we eschewed summaries or TL;DRs.

Sure, but llm may be more unbiased and give high quality summary. But I won’t do it again, I am sure you have thought about it much more than I have.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#84

Just price the H1B properly. 300K/year per visa from the company to the government adjusted for inflation. This will make sure that only the cream of the crop will come.

Be careful what you wish for. H1B and other visas are fraught with kickback schemes. Upping the number might be just what's wanted by the current set of fraudsters.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#85
post #3

I’ve been hearing about this for decades. It keeps happening because republicans need their cheap labor and democrats need foreign voters. The people in power have tremendous political incentives to keep the pipeline flowing.

> democrats need foreign voters Is there any proof for this statement? Republicans want cheap labor, they'll tell you that themselves, but I don't believe the Democrats would ever say that they believe in labor immigration to "get more voters". That just sounds like a ludicrous conspiracy.

I doubt they would brazenly say that. That would be an open admission of ethnic conflict which would probably inevitably lead to violence. The word "need" in that quote is probably not literal, but Democrats do appear to desire demographic change. Here's some proof they want more of specific foreigners:

1) The biggest proof is under Biden's last term and at the end of Obama's last term, there were very large numbers of illegal border crossings. Especially under Biden where millions crossed. Let's conservatively say it was seven million people in four years. That doesn't happen by accident. Why do I say that? Under Trump's terms the border crossing numbers dramatically diminished. So it was just a question of enforcement which means the DHS, which happened to be run by the same guy Alejandro Mayorkas under both Biden and Obama, simply chose not to enforce the border and allow very large numbers of asylum claims (which I think are bogus and not our responsibility). That's a very nasty thing to do. Note that neither Biden nor Obama openly campaigned on letting millions of people in and it was a big concern of voters going into the 2024 elections.

2) Democrats have run on a racial platform and it has been very successful. See: https://keywiki.org/Race_Will_Win_the_Race. For example, California used to be a GOP state. Ronald Reagan was the governor of California. The demographics of California have changed dramatically in just a few decades as has the politics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#202...

3) Democrats have refused to comply with ICE. ICE is responsible for deportations. They have created sanctuary cities, counties, and states. What reason is there for this besides not wanting illegals to be removed? "Human rights" is just a way of saying "endless litigation to prevent deportations".

4) The census was changed under Biden to include illegals in the population count. This is used to apportion representatives. So that would give more representation in the House to Democrats since illegals tend to live in urban areas which are all represented by Democrats.

5) Democrats have repeatedly made claims about how diversity is our strength. If diversity is to be valued, they must favor more immigration. Diversity here seems to be a euphemism. No one calls for diversity in China or Saudi Arabia for example. Why not? I think we know. So immigration and diversity are seemingly euphemisms for something else. https://www.c-span.org/clip/white-house-event/user-clip-joe-...

6) The 1965 Immigration Act signed and sponsored under Democrats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac.... It called for less homogeneity of immigrants. It has caused demographic change. If we look at how ethnic groups vote, demographic change has primarily benefited Democrats.

I think it's just obvious also. Lots of political things are put in terms of euphemisms that use watered down language. But it's quite hard not to notice ethnic conflict and balkanization beginning in the US and even across Europe.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> democrats need foreign voters Is there any proof for this statement? Republicans want cheap labor, they'll tell you that themselves, but I don't believe the Democrats would ever say that they believe in labor immigration to "get more voters". That just sounds like a ludicrous conspiracy.

I doubt they would brazenly say that. That would be an open admission of ethnic conflict which would probably inevitably lead to violence. The word "need" in that quote is probably not literal, but Democrats do appear to desire demographic change. Here's some proof they want more of specific foreigners: 1) The biggest proof is under Biden's last term and at the end of Obama's last term, there were very large numbers…

[deleted]

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#87
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Demographics is destiny" seems to be a quote from a french philosopher from the 1800s, while "coalition of the ascendant" seems to be a description of the coalition Obama sought to build in his second term, an idea swiftly dismantled in 2016. But what was the nature of "the coalition Obama sought to build in his second term?" Normally, political coalitions are based on things like geography or economic classes. Bu…

> the last gasp of the old America before it was washed away by demographic change. I have heard commentators mention ideas along those lines (never the specific formulations you used as examples, but the general vibe) post 2016, and even a little before that. That is, to me, not the same as that being the policy. Post 2016 democrats needed a cope. They needed a hope to hold on to after they had lost, what to them se…

[deleted]

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#88
post #78
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't vote in Federal elections if they're not citizens.

In practice, H1B is a pipeline to citizenship, not just for the worker but their immediate family and extended family (due to family sponsorship). One H1 visa to my dad resulted in seven additional Bangladeshis in the U.S. And my dad did not sponsor a fraction of the family members he could have. Moreover, foreign mindsets are durable over generations: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran... (…

> "Moreover, foreign mindsets are durable over generation"

Right, and most countries are very conservative compared to the US, in particular many of the countries that the average H1B holder is from. India, for example. That means Republican voters. The entire premise is flawed fearmongering.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#89
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that one must be a citizen to vote, this doesn’t appear to be the right angle through which to call out the Democratic Party. If you were to speak with Democratic Party leadership, I believe the emphasis would be on attractive talent from around the world to keep American businesses competitive. Certainly if there are problems with these visa programs, it’s worthwhile to bring them up to elected officials and p…

H1Bs get citizenship, and they raise their children in their home cultures. My parents are citizens and have been voting for decades. But they still think and vote like Bangladeshis. I’m not saying it’s some written-out plan. But look at how left wing Indians and Indian politicians in the U.S. are compared to say German Americans. (Socialism was a founding principle of the modern Indian state.) People in the party ar…

India is overwhelmingly conservative. March 1990 changed everything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_India

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#90
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t do this on HN. Even before LLMs were commonplace we eschewed summaries or TL;DRs.

Sure, but llm may be more unbiased and give high quality summary. But I won’t do it again, I am sure you have thought about it much more than I have.

Thanks! The main reason is that we don’t know what important details are left out when the article is summarized, then if people make comments in response to the summary instead of reading the whole article, the discussion thread is somewhat poisoned.
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