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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

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Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#81

Post by lillecarl »

charcircuit wrote: post #57
lillecarl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your platform becomes a dominant market it becomes a market and markets are regulated to prevent market abuse, this is what's happening now. And while Facebook and Google would still be hoarding data, there are a huge amount of games and apps I'd rather pay 5 for that are now ad-fueled invasive crapps and "pay to remove ads" costs 15 instead of 5. When a significant percentage of the population uses your product…

Companies should not be regulated just because they are successful. Apple built a really successful app platform. It's theirs to maintain or burn to the ground.

I didn't double check this, but according to a quick search 60% of the adult US population owns an iPhone, you're saying that even though you're operating where more than 50% of your target market has your products you should not be held accountable for predatory behavior?

The thing with this 30% tax the private company Apple imposes on a majority of US adults is reasonable?

When you're "competing" with the government (30% tax sounds pretty government like to a Swede, we have 25% VAT) the government will get involved because you're operating a "shadow government" eventually (you set all the rules and set the tax rate, you're now a government).

Supporting Apple here is unreasonable, sure they should be able to take a margin on the app store, but not allowing other stores OR allowing external payment methods to be advertised is definitely predatory behavior and the government already has a monopoly on that.

And the "core fee" response was entirely unreasonable, it is unreasonably expensive. If Apple were operating like Sony on the Playstation where the console is a loss leader for much of it's lifetime then you ofc deserve a cut from developers since you enable them to build profitable games for your platform which markets the game for you and stuff. But Apple makes a profit of iPhones, they make a profit on iCloud, they make profit on App Store... They make a profit everywhere. It's predatory and I don't know how to agree with them here.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#82

Post by McDyver »

_benton wrote: post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

It's not controversial, you can still have your walled garden as-is.

The point of this is so that there is the possibility of escaping that walled garden, arguably welcoming more users into the ecosystem.

Nothing would change for you. Just like android users can keep using all things Google, they have the possibility of installing apps from other sources.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#83

Post by bitpush »

_benton wrote: post #45
amelius wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the core of my contention is that: if you make the platform that others run on and which creates entirely new economies and allows businesses to thrive, don’t you get to define the constraints that you want since it’s _your_ platform? What’s effectively happening here is that companies are using the courts to force the design of OSes in a certain way: That only open OSes can ever be made, not closed ones. Huh,…

> Huh, the __user__ paid for the product, so they own it. After the user handed over their money, Apple has nothing to say about who I do business with on that product, or what the conditions are. But this is already the case. You own the device, you can do whatever you want with it (legally ofc). If I buy a fridge without a freezer, the fact that I can't freeze food with it doesn't mean I don't own the fridge. Furth…

[flagged]

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#84

Post by rwyinuse »

ronsor wrote: post #48
Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

> - Yes, I know no one outside the US uses iMessage. Yes, people in the EU use WhatsApp, by Meta & Zuckerberg , and from what I've seen, often act as if that is some sort of mark of superiority.

I don't think most of US in the EU really mind, or even know what messaging app people in America use. The privacy conscious folk around here do tend to prefer Signal over Whatsapp though.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#85

Post by msgodel »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

If you sell me a computer and I don't have a shell on it that's false advertising at best. Doing this en mass with the goal of actually changing people's behavior is even worse IMO. We don't have a word for it because it's not something that could be done before now. Microsoft tried with Windows and IE but the technology at the time meant they couldn't really lock people out of their own devices the way Apple does.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#86

Post by baggachipz »

bitpush wrote: post #21
resolutefunctor wrote: post #15

There is a lot I hate about building apps and releasing them on the App Store, and I'd be happy for there to be alternatives. But that said, I don't understand how its a monopoly. There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. There are other devices and means for software delivery out there. What makes their control of their own ecosystem monopolistic? As someone who has paid the apple tax for digital sale…

If tomorrow, Tesla insisted that their cars will only accepted Tesla branded tires, would you be ok with it? Sure it's their car and they can do whatever they want with it, but consumers are losing choices - which is what anti-monopoly rules are for. Say, Michelin or Pirelli tires are strictly better but Tesla doing this harms consumer choice and that's why it is bad. Imagine if this were extended to Tesla branded ch…

They don't sell parts to shops, so effectively they have a lock on repairs.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#87

Post by palata »

bitpush wrote: post #4
mrbluecoat wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Isnt that how the system is supposed to work, unless you think Apple would be always benevolent? I think HNers make a mistake (and believe Apple's marketing) that Apple always stands for users, cares about design, pushing the boundary, "think different" etc. It is painfully obvious, but Apple's singular goal is to make money (profit for shareholders) and THAT IS A GOOD THING. They'll cut corners, test the boundaries…

I agree with you that companies are profit-maximising machines. And regulations set the framework into which companies can optimise.

The problem we have with quasi-monopolies is that they have too much power and don't have to care about regulations.

> Suing them is the right way to fix those behaviors.

The problem is that it doesn't work. I am still waiting for Apple or one of the other TooBigTech to get a fine that really, actually hurts. But nobody will do that: the US like monopolies (as long as they are US companies of course) and others (like the EU) don't dare regulating US companies because... well because the US governement won't accept it.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#88

Post by tolerance »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #39

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

Really?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb...

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#89

Post by ghaff »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #73
bitpush wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the lawsuit > For example, when a user purchases an iPhone, the user is steered to use Apple’s default email product, Apple Mail. It is only through a complex labyrinth of settings that a user can change her default email application away from the Apple “Mail” application towards an alternative like Gmail (Google) or Proton Mail. > At least for mail a user can in theory modify the default setting. On the calenda…

I mean, does Settings > Apps > Gmail (or whichever other app) > Default Mail App really qualify as “a complex labyrinth”? Sure, it’d be a good thing to add a “Default Apps” section under Settings > General or something, but calling the current route complex almost sounds like an insult to users. EDIT: Actually, there already is a “Default Apps” section right at the top of the page of Settings > Apps. Yeah, if that’s…

I've probably used Apple Mail and/or Apple Calendar at some point in my ownership of Apple products but they're both using Google products at the moment on my phone and I have no recollection of setting those up as being complex through a variety of hardware transitions.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#90

Post by spogbiper »

_benton wrote: post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

if all you want is for your apps to come from Apple's store and your payments to go through Apple's system, you would simply continue to use only those options and allowing other people to have other options would not impact you.

what you actually want is to force all developers to use Apple's distribution and payment systems, so that you can have every app and service from any provider delivered via your chosen mechanisms. that takes away freedom from developers and users who prefer other systems. it eliminates the market for anyone to make or use something better than your chosen options

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