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Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

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Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#81
post #24

Fast food addiction, free-refill-fueled soda addiction, tobacco addiction, weakly trained near universal use of automobiles for daily travel, and unequal access to healthcare are staples of American culture so I am only surprised the spread is not worse. This has very little to do with location or genetics and everything to do with education and culture.

Europeans smoke more than Americans

Depends on country I think. At least here in Norway, after the ban on smoking indoors at public places like restaurants and bars 20 years ago, smoking went way down.

When I visited New York a few years ago I was shocked about how much smoking there was everywhere.

Of course, people didn't quit nicotine entirely, many moving to snus[1] instead.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that would work better than having the unhealthy people literally take the money out of their own pocket.

Can you explain how you disagree. You mean people have as much money as the government to waste on their health issues? Or you mean people without free healthcare can self regulate habits and be totally not influenced by corporate advertisement and cheap unhealthy stuff dominating food markets? I think that's maybe too rosy Imagine the government pays for healthcare. The government can pass laws. What is cheaper for…

Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law.

If the government isn't paying for your healthcare, then you have to pay it yourself. If you are fat, statistically, you will probably end up paying a lot more over time. This is not "wasted" money - no money you spend on your health is totally wasted. The good news is, you personally benefit from this money more than anyone else who could possibly spend it on your behalf - you reap the health benefits, the extra Christmases with the family, the bigger smiles from strangers.

Now how much does being fat cost over a lifetime? Frequently in the range of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's pure medical costs, before we even consider how much the intangibles are worth.

The thing is: Most people understand this. If you understand this, and are still fat, then on some level you are indeed saying that the money isn't worth the trade-off of changing your whole lifestyle to (a) fix this and then (b) ensure you don't end up there again.

To me that's proof that being fat is a very hard thing to change just by throwing money at it. The literal best, most incentivized person, the fat person themselves, can't even figure out how to change it, not even with at minimum tens of thousands of dollars on the line. There are probably government interventions that probably could move the needle at scale, but they are probably not "let's subsidize spinach farmers" or whatever, because an extra $2 per week for spinach is just not that much money compared to even a single $50,000 gastric bypass. They probably look more like "If your BMI drifts above 27 we send you to weight loss prison and you can come out when you're below 22 again", which sounds insane, because it is. It is simply a very hard problem to solve by throwing money at it.

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#83
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never been to US but saying car centric development in Europe is similar to US sounds crazy to me. It's not just Netherlands. Vienna, Budapest, Stockholm, Barcelona, Germany and Switzerland... is it really true people in America take buses and trains as often as in those places? and they are also so well maintained? is it just propaganda that public transport in US sucks outside of maybe NYC

It is absolutely not propaganda. I live in a rural village about 5 hours' drive from NYC. There is no public transport here. If I drive 45 minutes to the nearest city, I can catch a train—but that train will only take me to a few destinations (primarily Albany, NYC, or Boston one way, or Buffalo, Chicago and points west the other way). Some cities (outside of major metropolitan areas, which do generally have some kin…

Yeah. I just picked random two small villages in Italy 200 km apart and Google maps says 4-5 hr by public transport, yes a few interchanges but you barely need to walk less than 10 minutes total. I remember being impressed with european public transport (after what we have in russia) and this rings true. Then I picked two random Missouri townships 83 miles away and it's 40 min by car and no route at all by any public transport. even if I chose so that both of them are on the same big 4 lane road!

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how you disagree. You mean people have as much money as the government to waste on their health issues? Or you mean people without free healthcare can self regulate habits and be totally not influenced by corporate advertisement and cheap unhealthy stuff dominating food markets? I think that's maybe too rosy Imagine the government pays for healthcare. The government can pass laws. What is cheaper for…

Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law. If the government isn't paying for your healthcare, then you have to pay it yourself. If you are fat, statistically, you will probably end up paying a lot more over time. This is not "wasted" money - no money you spend on your health is…

> Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law.

I mean a government that already chose to implement free healthcare. THEN it is cheaper for them to keep people healthy.

Of course it would be cheapest to not care at all. But if you already locked into caring then it is cheaper to prevent than to treat

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#85
US on par with Albania. Nice.

The US can claim "#1" status in 3 areas only:

- a large number of top-class research universities (other countries have these two but in much much smaller number)

- the most dominant military-industrial complex

- deregulated pro-business environment that is a good place to make a fortune if you're talented & lucky, or know how to bullshit investors

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#86
post #38
post #24

Fast food addiction, free-refill-fueled soda addiction, tobacco addiction, weakly trained near universal use of automobiles for daily travel, and unequal access to healthcare are staples of American culture so I am only surprised the spread is not worse. This has very little to do with location or genetics and everything to do with education and culture.

> Fast food addiction, free-refill-fueled soda addiction, tobacco addiction, weakly trained near universal use of automobiles for daily travel, and unequal access to healthcare are staples of American culture Every one of those points is also true in Europe (apart from possibly healthcare), unfortunately. Car dependency and car-centric development is almost everywhere, places like the Netherlands are an outlier. Fast…

> Car dependency and car-centric development is almost everywhere, places like the Netherlands are an outlier.

Not anywhere near US levels. Netherlands isn't an outlier. You can get pretty much anywhere in Switzerland with good public transport. Denmark, Germany, Austria, Northern Italy, France, Belgium, all have excellent public transportation networks with wide coverage.

> Many people smoke.

This is the one "healthy living" area where Europe lags the US. But many people in the US vape and I'm not sure it's any healthier.

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#87
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Car dependency and car-centric development is almost everywhere It's the degree of things. I live in Ireland, in a village of a few thousand people a few km outside the city, what you might call a "suburb" in the US. I don't even have a driver's license. It's rarely an issue and can go about my life by foot. bike, and public transport.

> It's rarely an issue and can go about my life by foot. bike, and public transport. You are a very unusual person then, as the vast vast majority of people in not urban core Ireland have (and use) a car. I live in a Dublin suburb, and we're one of the few married couples that don't have two cars.

Yes, European families own cars, but they don't have to use them as much as Americans.

There's almost no way to survive in the US without a vehicle, except in a few cities (mostly NYC). You can do without a car in many European cities.

I never owned a car until I moved to the US ~10 years ago.

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law. If the government isn't paying for your healthcare, then you have to pay it yourself. If you are fat, statistically, you will probably end up paying a lot more over time. This is not "wasted" money - no money you spend on your health is…

> Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law. I mean a government that already chose to implement free healthcare. THEN it is cheaper for them to keep people healthy. Of course it would be cheapest to not care at all. But if you already locked into caring then it is cheaper to pre…

That isn't actually the argument I'm making, but for what it's worth that's both false and begging the question. A government can choose to stop implementing universal healthcare, just like it can choose to implement it.

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alright, now imagine the government doesn't pay for healthcare. This is the literal cheapest thing for them, as it now costs $0, and they don't have to spend time worrying about law. I mean a government that already chose to implement free healthcare. THEN it is cheaper for them to keep people healthy. Of course it would be cheapest to not care at all. But if you already locked into caring then it is cheaper to pre…

That isn't actually the argument I'm making, but for what it's worth that's both false and begging the question. A government can choose to stop implementing universal healthcare, just like it can choose to implement it.

What is false in what I wrote can you be specific? Thanks

> government can choose to stop implementing universal healthcare, just like it can choose to implement it.

FYI in a democracy it doesn't really work like that

Re: Life Expectancy in Europe Compared to the US

#90
post #24

Fast food addiction, free-refill-fueled soda addiction, tobacco addiction, weakly trained near universal use of automobiles for daily travel, and unequal access to healthcare are staples of American culture so I am only surprised the spread is not worse. This has very little to do with location or genetics and everything to do with education and culture.

Are you a time traveler? Tobacco addiction hasn’t been rampant since the 90s and it was dying out then. It is certainly not a staple of American culture. Agreed that it’s not genetics. That’s just silly.
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