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A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

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Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy to training is not writing a play based on the work. It's more like reading (experiencing) the work and forming memories in your brain, which you can access later. I'm allowed to hear a copyrighted tune, and even whistle it later for my own enjoyment, but I can't perform it for others without license.

This is nonsense, in my opinion. You aren't "hearing" anything. You are literally creating a work, in this case, the model, derived from another work. People need to stop anthropomorphizing neural networks. It's a software and a software is a tool and a tool is used by a human.

It is easy to dismiss, but the burden of proof would be on the plaintiff to prove that training a model is substantially different than the human mind. Good luck with that.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#83
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use the copyrighted text for personal purposes.

But you can’t distribute it, which in the scenario mentioned in the parent’s final paragraph arguably happens.

You can't distribute the copyrighted works, but that isn't inherently the same thing as the model.

It's sort of like distributing a compendium of book reviews. Many of the reviews have quotes from the book. If there are thousands of reviews, you could potentially reconstruct the whole book, but that's not the point of the thing and so it makes sense for the infringing thing to be "using it to reconstruct the whole book" rather than "distributing the compendium".

And then Anthropic fended off the argument that their service was intended for doing the former because they were explicitly taking measures to prevent that.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use the copyrighted text for personal purposes.

Hey can I have a fake llm "trained" on a set of copyrighted works to ask what those works are? So it totally isn't a warez streaming media server but AI? I'm guessing since my net worth isn't a billion plus, the answer is no

People have been coming up with convoluted piracy loopholes since the invention of copyright.

If you xor some data with random numbers, both the result and the random numbers are indistinguishably random and there is no way to tell which one came out of a random number generator and which one is "derived" from a copyrighted work. But if you xor them together again the copyrighted work comes out. So if you have Alice distribute one of the random looking things and Bob distribute the other one and then Carol downloads them both and reconstructs the copyrighted work, have you created a scheme to copy whatever you want with no infringement occurring?

Of course not, at least Carol is reproducing an infringing work, and then there are going to be claims of contributory infringement etc. for the others if the scheme has no other purpose than to do this.

Meanwhile this problem is also boring because preventing anyone from being the source of infringing works isn't a thing anybody has been able to do since at least as long as the internet has allowed anyone to set up a server in another jurisdiction.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#86

Good. Reading books is legal. If I own a book and feed it to a program I wrote (and I have done exactly that), it is also legal. There is zero reason this should be any different with an AI.

If you charge me to use your program and it spits out unedited, copyrighted material then it should be illegal. I don't know the details of this case, but that's what's going on in the New York Times case. It's not always so cut and dry.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#87
post #75

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

Wouldn’t the issue be executing the models to third parties without filters? No idea if this is right but the same it would apply to Anthropic that they couldn’t run the model without the filter system having a chicken an egg problem. Can’t develop the filter without looking into the model.

[dead]

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#88
> “We will have a trial on the pirated copies used to create Anthropic’s central library and the resulting damages,” Judge Alsup wrote in the decision. “That Anthropic later bought a copy of a book it earlier stole off the internet will not absolve it of liability for theft but it may affect the extent of statutory damages.”

I'm not sure why this alone is considered a separate issue from training the AI with books. Buying a copy of a copyrighted work doesn't inherently convey 'fair use rights' to the purchaser. If I buy a work, read it, sell it, and then publish a review or parody of it, I don't infringe copyright. Why does mere possession of an unauthorized copy create a separate triable matter before the court?

Keep in mind, you can legally engineer EULAs in such a way that merely purchasing the work surrenders all of your fair use rights. So this could wind up being effectively: "AI training is fair use for works purchased before June 24th, 2025, everything after is forbidden, here's your brand new moat OpenAI"

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what contract? with who? Meta at least just downloaded ENGLISH_LANGUAGUE_BOOKS_ALL_MEGATORRENT.torrent and trained on that.

I know, but the article mentions that a separate ruling will be made about that pirating. quote: “We will have a trial on the pirated copies used to create Anthropic’s central library and the resulting damages,” Judge Alsup wrote in the decision. “That Anthropic later bought a copy of a book it earlier stole off the internet will not absolve it of liability for theft but it may affect the extent of statutory damages.…

What contracts? And would it run afoul of first sale doctrine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

> The doctrine was first recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1909. In the Bobbs-Merrill case, the publisher, Bobbs-Merrill, had inserted a notice in its books that any retail sale at a price under $1.00 would constitute an infringement of its copyright. The defendants, who owned Macy's department store, disregarded the notice and sold the books at a lower price without Bobbs-Merrill's consent. The Supreme Court held that the exclusive statutory right to "vend" applied only to the first sale of the copyrighted work.

> Today, this rule of law is codified in 17 U.S.C. § 109(a), which provides:

> Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

---

If I buy a copy of a book, you can't limit what I can do with the book beyond what copyright restricts me.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#90

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

Yep, broadly capable open models are on track for annihilation. The cost of legally obtaining all the training materials will require hefty backing. Additionally that if you download a model file that contains enough of the source material to be considered infringing (even without using the LLM, assume you can extract the contents directly out of the weights) then it might as well be a .zip with a PDF in it, the mode…

Yep, broadly capable open models are on track for annihilation. The cost of legally obtaining all the training materials will require hefty backing.

This will have the effect of empowering countries (and other entities) that don't respect copyright law, of course.

The copyright cartel cannot be allowed to yank the handbrake on AI. If they insist on a fight, they must lose.

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