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FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

tomshardware.com

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Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#81

Post by buildsjets »

SoftTalker wrote: post #74

I doubt the paper strips go away. They are the fallback for knowing what sequence the airplanes are in when the screens all go dark.

What non-pilot techies fail to comprehend is that the entire ATC system is designed to operate in a no-communication failure mode. This includes features such as the paper strips, mandatory holding points, timed approaches, clearance void times, etc. It is all designed so if you have a complete communication failure in IFR conditions you can land without hitting anyone else.

Any fancy new system of, for example an in-cockpit text based clearance/routing display using an LTE network, will need to be backed up with a process that can be accomplished with a pencil, a compass, and silence.

For anyone considering doing development in this space, sign up for a 20 hour instrument flying ground school, preferably one taught by a retired old fart rather than a 25 year old “instructor” with no actual experience.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#82

Post by stackskipton »

dataflow wrote: post #72
jandrewrogers wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most takes on this are overly reductive. The whole situation is sad really. The root cause, to the extent that one exists, is that no one is accountable for successful execution in a very literal and systemic way. Some parts of the government I've worked in are worse than others, but it is endemic. This leads to a textbook case of Pournelle's Iron Law. There are no negative consequences for a handful of peopl…

> The root cause, to the extent that one exists, is that no one is accountable for successful execution in a very literal and systemic way. Not even the secretary of transportation? Wouldn't this have been a really great way for the previous one to show he can get things done? Or does the position lack the requisite authority?

Somewhat authority, you need Congress to sign off on the money and they will want to influence it to their preferred vendors. Also, when Secretary of Transportation wants to run for higher office, he does not want some boondoggle project that looks terrible hanging over his next office run.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#83

Post by timeflex »

looofooo0 wrote: post #9
skissane wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For retrofit purposes, it's probably attainable to use solid state (no moving parts) floppy disk emulators that use USB thumb drives or CF/SD cards instead of error-prone, real floppy disks. Yes, but if it is just a PC running Windows 95, likely simpler to get the software working under newer Windows, or if worst comes to worst, keep Windows 95 and stick it in a VM. I doubt there is any specialised hardware on the…

I guess these hardware emulators are quite cheap on aliexpress, but then obivously for anything critical...

A hardware emulator is basically any hardware in the last decade capable of running QEMU or other virtualization solution.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#84

Post by dataflow »

stackskipton wrote: post #82
dataflow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The root cause, to the extent that one exists, is that no one is accountable for successful execution in a very literal and systemic way. Not even the secretary of transportation? Wouldn't this have been a really great way for the previous one to show he can get things done? Or does the position lack the requisite authority?

Somewhat authority, you need Congress to sign off on the money and they will want to influence it to their preferred vendors. Also, when Secretary of Transportation wants to run for higher office, he does not want some boondoggle project that looks terrible hanging over his next office run.

> you need Congress to sign off on the money

I kind of expected this to be the reply, but I wrote my comment because earlier folks had said:

>> It is an execution issue, not a money issue.

which sounded like the money was already there.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#86

Post by dylan604 »

buildsjets wrote: post #81
SoftTalker wrote: post #74

I doubt the paper strips go away. They are the fallback for knowing what sequence the airplanes are in when the screens all go dark.

What non-pilot techies fail to comprehend is that the entire ATC system is designed to operate in a no-communication failure mode. This includes features such as the paper strips, mandatory holding points, timed approaches, clearance void times, etc. It is all designed so if you have a complete communication failure in IFR conditions you can land without hitting anyone else. Any fancy new system of, for example an in…

> For anyone considering doing development in this space, sign up for a 20 hour instrument flying ground school, preferably one taught by a retired old fart rather than a 25 year old “instructor” with no actual experience.

That's a bit overkill in the world of DOGE. They'll just use some AI to design a system by a bunch of 20-somethings that have no experience whatsoever. Then, they'll come here and brag about it.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#87

Post by jrochkind1 »

Simulacra wrote: post #23
DebtDeflation wrote: post #20

As of the early 2000s, ATC was still using vacuum tubes. In fact, the FAA was the single biggest buyer of vacuum tubes in the world at the time, almost all of them sourced from former Soviet bloc countries. I think they've all been replaced by now, but I can't say that with 100% certainty.

Which is what baffles me about the current situation and gives me a lot of hope for this effort. We should've been updating this stuff in the 90s, but successive administrations of both parties have just passed the ball on this one.

So floppy disks were still used in the 90s. Windows 95 obviously came out in the 90s. Perhaps they did update this stuff in the 90s?

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#89

Post by uselesswords »

dylan604 wrote: post #86
buildsjets wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What non-pilot techies fail to comprehend is that the entire ATC system is designed to operate in a no-communication failure mode. This includes features such as the paper strips, mandatory holding points, timed approaches, clearance void times, etc. It is all designed so if you have a complete communication failure in IFR conditions you can land without hitting anyone else. Any fancy new system of, for example an in…

> For anyone considering doing development in this space, sign up for a 20 hour instrument flying ground school, preferably one taught by a retired old fart rather than a 25 year old “instructor” with no actual experience. That's a bit overkill in the world of DOGE. They'll just use some AI to design a system by a bunch of 20-somethings that have no experience whatsoever. Then, they'll come here and brag about it.

Nobody even mentioned DOGE

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#90

Post by sillywalk »

skissane wrote: post #8
burnt-resistor wrote: post #2

For retrofit purposes, it's probably attainable to use solid state (no moving parts) floppy disk emulators that use USB thumb drives or CF/SD cards instead of error-prone, real floppy disks. Every time a floppy drive moves over a sector to read or write, it wears that area mechanically. Magnetically, bits just seem to rot from floppy disks randomly with time more likely failure mode for previously good floppies. Let…

> For retrofit purposes, it's probably attainable to use solid state (no moving parts) floppy disk emulators that use USB thumb drives or CF/SD cards instead of error-prone, real floppy disks. Yes, but if it is just a PC running Windows 95, likely simpler to get the software working under newer Windows, or if worst comes to worst, keep Windows 95 and stick it in a VM. I doubt there is any specialised hardware on the…

> USAF was proud to publicly announce they’d successfully transitioned the US nuclear arsenal to be floppy-free. I don’t know if they said publicly exactly how they did it,

They only said a “highly-secure solid state digital storage solution”. At least that's all I could find.[0] The article indicates that things get repaired down to the "component level", but specialist civilians.

And this bit was interesting as well:

"While SACC’s hardware is decades old, its software is constantly refreshed by young Air Force programmers who learn software development skills at Offutt’s Rapid Agile Development Lab. Most work on the software and interfaces seen by end-users like intercontinental ballistic missile launch crews, rewriting legacy code to make it more modern and sustainable, said Master Sgt. Travis Menard, 595th SCS’s programming section chief."

[0] https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/10/17/the-us-nuclear-force...

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