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The Panic Over Fukushima

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81–90 of 116 posts

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#81
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I can't find any confirmation that the country-wide shutdown of nuclear plants in Japan has been anything other than bad for the country. While Japan continues to need electricity (for life-saving medical technologies, among other uses), and until other sources of electricity become less expensive, it makes sense for Japan to be open to restarting the other nuclear plants in the country." OK, I don't know if anyone…

Your angry capitalization does not substitute for understanding of where the waste will go and what the actual health impact would be. We have actually had some time to see how this goes, what are the results so far?

Oh please. I'm sorry you interpret my capitalization as "angry". It's a typing style I'm used to. I'm 52, and I've been on the net since the late 80's, if you want to suggest a simple italicization trick for HN, please let me know.

As far as the rest of your question, I am completely dumbfounded, gobsmacked, and bewildered as to WTF you are saying.

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over 15K people were killed in the quake and tsunami. On the scale of "badness", ~200 projected cases is not a scale tipper. Not to trivialize the additional projected cancer risks, just to put it in perspective.

what other industry gets to benchmark social license against this tsunami? What other unacceptable risks should be weighed up against 15,000 deaths "to put it in perspective"? On the scale of badness, how many deaths does an industry need to be responsible for until its "a scale tipper"? This is a very poor way of weighing up the very real ongoing risks and hazards presented by the nuclear power industry.

Other industries would of course be considered on merit. I don't know if any so thoroughly under attack from people with a poor grasp of the topic (or supported by people with such a poor grasp of the topic...)

What other industries would it be relevant to benchmark like this?

Why is it a poor way of weighing up the hazards?

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your angry capitalization does not substitute for understanding of where the waste will go and what the actual health impact would be. We have actually had some time to see how this goes, what are the results so far?

Oh please. I'm sorry you interpret my capitalization as "angry". It's a typing style I'm used to. I'm 52, and I've been on the net since the late 80's, if you want to suggest a simple italicization trick for HN, please let me know. As far as the rest of your question, I am completely dumbfounded, gobsmacked, and bewildered as to WTF you are saying.

[deleted]

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#84
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your angry capitalization does not substitute for understanding of where the waste will go and what the actual health impact would be. We have actually had some time to see how this goes, what are the results so far?

Oh please. I'm sorry you interpret my capitalization as "angry". It's a typing style I'm used to. I'm 52, and I've been on the net since the late 80's, if you want to suggest a simple italicization trick for HN, please let me know. As far as the rest of your question, I am completely dumbfounded, gobsmacked, and bewildered as to WTF you are saying.

Surround what you're typing by asterisks. It feels awkward to me after spending a long time _underlining_ things, but it certainly looks better.

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#85
post #74

The author of the submitted article, Richard Muller, is the developer of a Physics for Future Presidents course at UC Berkeley, author of a book with the same title as the course, and author of a new book Physics and Technology for Future Presidents: An Introduction to the Essential Physics Every World Leader Needs to Know http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9226.html that is well worth a read. In other words, Muller h…

"I can't find any confirmation that the country-wide shutdown of nuclear plants in Japan has been anything other than bad for the country. While Japan continues to need electricity (for life-saving medical technologies, among other uses), and until other sources of electricity become less expensive, it makes sense for Japan to be open to restarting the other nuclear plants in the country." OK, I don't know if anyone…

The concept of a half-life explains why LETHAL FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS is a bit of an overselling of the situation.

The more radioactive a substance is, the shorter its half life. That is, the sooner it will become less radioactive. And vice versa: if a substance has a long half life, it will simply emit less energy per unit of time.

It's just inverse formulae. Nothing magical.

But people imagine high-powered radioactivity lasting for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. It just doesn't happen like that.

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#86
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. I'm sorry you interpret my capitalization as "angry". It's a typing style I'm used to. I'm 52, and I've been on the net since the late 80's, if you want to suggest a simple italicization trick for HN, please let me know. As far as the rest of your question, I am completely dumbfounded, gobsmacked, and bewildered as to WTF you are saying.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. I'm sorry you interpret my capitalization as "angry". It's a typing style I'm used to. I'm 52, and I've been on the net since the late 80's, if you want to suggest a simple italicization trick for HN, please let me know. As far as the rest of your question, I am completely dumbfounded, gobsmacked, and bewildered as to WTF you are saying.

Surround what you're typing by asterisks . It feels awkward to me after spending a long time _underlining_ things, but it certainly looks better.

Like this?

Thanks!

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#88
post #23
post #13

As an experiment, I volunteer to expose myself, my wife and my children to a yearly dose of radiation that is three times the maximum safe-level recommended by The International Commission on Radiological Protection. i.e. we happily live in the Denver area ;-)

Really? Are you serious? BTW, there's a big difference between "background radiation" and ingested radiation (either through air, food, water, etc.) The scientific consensus is that there is no amount of radiation that is safe to ingest. http://www.rrjournal.org/doi/pdf/10.1667/RR2629.1 Do you really want to test your theory?

Radon, which is the main source of exposure in Denver, is a gas.

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#89
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I can't find any confirmation that the country-wide shutdown of nuclear plants in Japan has been anything other than bad for the country. While Japan continues to need electricity (for life-saving medical technologies, among other uses), and until other sources of electricity become less expensive, it makes sense for Japan to be open to restarting the other nuclear plants in the country." OK, I don't know if anyone…

The concept of a half-life explains why LETHAL FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS is a bit of an overselling of the situation. The more radioactive a substance is, the shorter its half life. That is, the sooner it will become less radioactive. And vice versa: if a substance has a long half life, it will simply emit less energy per unit of time. It's just inverse formulae. Nothing magical. But people imagine high-powered radioact…

Jacques, I feel reluctant to disagree with you, because to search out the supporting references is a bit of a chore, but I had a good education in physics, I was a very good student, and I am confident that lethal for thousands of years is not overselling of the situation. If anything, thousands of years is underselling, as hundreds of thousands would be more accurate.

Re: The Panic Over Fukushima

#90

The author of the submitted article, Richard Muller, is the developer of a Physics for Future Presidents course at UC Berkeley, author of a book with the same title as the course, and author of a new book Physics and Technology for Future Presidents: An Introduction to the Essential Physics Every World Leader Needs to Know http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9226.html that is well worth a read. In other words, Muller h…

You are correct that the shuttering of the plants has been bad for everybody. Power is already more expensive and another rate increase (10% or so) is imminent. The air is dirtier. The whole place is a lot more uncomfortable (to comply with mandatory energy cuts, the Tokyo office in which I am typing this very post no longer has any climate control on weekends... I have a frozen gel-pack wrappped around my head and sweat is still running down my back).

As a resident and rational human being, I want those gigawatts back. Modern Tokyo is an especially sad place without enough power.

But I want the gigawatts without the staggering incompetence and the gross negligence and the collusion and collossal failure of oversight. I want the nuclear plants to be equipped with modern emergency procedures that don't start with faxing a fucking paper form to City Hall.

And despite all the controvery and debate, I don't hear much about fixing those things. In terms of whether to turn the juice back on, those things are the problem, more than the accident itself. And that is the point that the well-written article by Dr. Muller misses.

Yes, it is rational for a thinking person to be open to using nuclear energy, despite the inherent risks. I think it is rational if, say, we really do a decent job of trying to mitigate those risks, to have functional regulatory oversight, and make decisions in a reasonably transparent, fully informed, democratic manner.

But when you feel (as I think the public here feels) that there is just no way that part is going to happen, then it becomes less rational to support the nukes.

Personally I love nuclear power. What a fucking thing! Incredible! And, it makes the 1 MW·h or so I personally use each month cheaper and even potentially cleaner.

So in theory sure, I support nuclear energy initiatives. I think you are right, it does make sense for Japan to be open to that.

But instead in Japan (and elsewhere, probably) I think the question actually is: "Do you support nuclear energy in the absence of competent oversight, with reliance on the for-profit provider's self-inspections, with safety precautions that are insufficient to protect from predictable natural disasters, and outdated fax-machine-based emergency procedures?"

The answer to that is less easy.

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