Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–89 of 89 posts

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#81

Post by orwin »

psunavy03 wrote: post #52
orwin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the main issue is that the men in the army who could have been properly taught how to handle violence are not, and when they're back the violence will infuse in the broader society.

Apparently you missed the part in the article where SAS troopers testified against the accused. So let's take that bigoted "veterans are broken people" narrative and stuff it where the sun don't shine alongside "women are hysterical" and so forth.

Wow, wow, i wasn't clear, i'm not accusing any western army of doing that (israel, US might be close however), i was responding to a specific comment about rotten leadership and lack of discipline. A well disciplined army do not bring the violence back, because they're taught how to handle the violence, and often are debriefed after each mission, then after each deployment. The issue is when demilitarization never happen, or when it start to treat enemies as non-humans.

I know far to much army men (mostly airforce, some Marsouins) to say "veterans are broken people", i know it isn't the case.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#82

Post by nickff »

aatd86 wrote: post #58
nickff wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re engaging in ‘whataboutism’; if you’d like to discuss the Wagner Group, you should post something about them instead.

Drawing a legitimate parallel and questioning the legitimacy of what we know and what we are being told is hardly 'whataboutism'. Especially when it might be geo-strategic. I find your accusation severe. The news colported these past few years should already have opened some eyes normally. Alas... Said otherwise, if you're a thief accusing someone else of stealing, I can legitimately wonder if you're making accusatio…

The journalists covering these stories are not members of the armed forces responsible for the actions you're talking about; they're not even government employees. It would be one thing if the SBS members accused of crimes were the ones criticizing Wagner, but that's not what's going on here.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#83

Post by aatd86 »

nickff wrote: post #82
aatd86 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drawing a legitimate parallel and questioning the legitimacy of what we know and what we are being told is hardly 'whataboutism'. Especially when it might be geo-strategic. I find your accusation severe. The news colported these past few years should already have opened some eyes normally. Alas... Said otherwise, if you're a thief accusing someone else of stealing, I can legitimately wonder if you're making accusatio…

The journalists covering these stories are not members of the armed forces responsible for the actions you're talking about; they're not even government employees. It would be one thing if the SBS members accused of crimes were the ones criticizing Wagner, but that's not what's going on here.

There must have been a misunderstanding. I wasn't speaking about the journalists. They are doing their reporting as they should.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#84

Post by nickff »

aatd86 wrote: post #83
nickff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The journalists covering these stories are not members of the armed forces responsible for the actions you're talking about; they're not even government employees. It would be one thing if the SBS members accused of crimes were the ones criticizing Wagner, but that's not what's going on here.

There must have been a misunderstanding. I wasn't speaking about the journalists. They are doing their reporting as they should.

Then (specifically) who do you think is being hypocritical?

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#85

Post by aatd86 »

nickff wrote: post #84
aatd86 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There must have been a misunderstanding. I wasn't speaking about the journalists. They are doing their reporting as they should.

Then (specifically) who do you think is being hypocritical?

Some army officers and potentially those who rely on the information they provide.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#86

Post by nickff »

aatd86 wrote: post #85
nickff wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then (specifically) who do you think is being hypocritical?

Some army officers and potentially those who rely on the information they provide.

I have not seen any British Army officers criticizing Wagner's war crimes while protecting the SBS from similar accusations, though I'd agree that would be hypocritical. That being said, the OP is not about those people, it's about a whistle-blower, and completely unrelated to Wagner.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#87

Post by aatd86 »

nickff wrote: post #86
aatd86 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some army officers and potentially those who rely on the information they provide.

I have not seen any British Army officers criticizing Wagner's war crimes while protecting the SBS from similar accusations, though I'd agree that would be hypocritical. That being said, the OP is not about those people, it's about a whistle-blower, and completely unrelated to Wagner.

I wasn't targeting the SAS specifically. This seems to be pervasive across armies. Just read the Human Rights Watch reports.

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#88

Post by defrost »

franktankbank wrote: post #77
pinkmuffinere wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that is insane, thanks for linking the Wikipedia page. To summarize, the thing he was whistleblowing was over-scrutiny of military personnel actions! He wasn’t whistleblowing the murders! That’s crazy and horrible.

Devils advocate and not necessarily McBride's argument but... does the "blooding" happen if "throwdowns" weren't already commonplace due to the over-oversight? Normalization of deviance creating a path for worse things? Once you are over there and everyone knows they have to do some amount of illegal shit its kind of difficult because the line is already crossed, where is the new line? Noone knows. I've seen this on…

Speaking of normalisation it's worth raising that as a former British Army major of a certain age McBride very much more than likely grew up with lashings of the Lance Corporal Jones approach to dealing with others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhWlAKdlQp4

Re: Ex-UK Special Forces break silence on 'war crimes' by colleagues

#89

Post by pyuser583 »

tartoran wrote: post #80
pyuser583 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People used to murder their own children undesired a children as a form of population control. It was normal and expected. Murdering defeated enemies, and their children was equally normal and expected. We live in such a wonderful age that we can easily forget many “unthinkable” things are the default of humanity.

That doesn't excuse current behavior. We want to live in a world where that does not happen. Do you not? Also in this case it wasn't expected of these special forces to behave this way, they take the liberty to commit atrocities out of pure pleasure.

No but we need to address the fact that in conditions of warfare, this is the human default.

It starts it training, warning soldiers they will be tempted to commit war crimes. Looking at case studies where the “norm” has been averted.

When it comes to punishing offenders, you have to be very careful not to punish only those who speak out.

Post reply on HN