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Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

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Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#81

Post by jimjimjim »

amitport wrote: post #39
rixed wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's interresting. According to wikipedia[0], the frenchs did think about stealing it during the Napoleonic wars, but didn't. Some time later they "suggested" to the Ottomans that the obelisks be offered, in exchange for a monumental clock[1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks#Luxor_Obelisk... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Citadel_Clock

In any case, it didn't belong to the Ottomans to give away. Getting it as gift from a conquering entity, does not make any of it better.

By that logic who does it belong to? How long does someone need to be in an area to be the "owner" of it. The people on Egypt currently weren't there when it was moved. Why should they get it? The people that were there when it was moved definitely weren't there 3000 years ago when it was made. Did they own it? In fact who owns anything in the world?

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#82

Post by jfengel »

orwin wrote: post #28
Luc wrote: post #18

https://www.progres.net.eg/plusieurs-messages-caches-sur-lob... In this article in French, they mention hieroglyphs encoded in the way arms and legs are drawn of a figure on the throne of Tutankhamun, and that only 6 Egyptologists in the whole worlds are able to decode them. Hmmm, I wonder how mainstream these ideas are? Do other Egyptologists respect them?

The idea of cryptohieroglyphs is accepted as true it seems (at least in France), even though most Egyptologist think they are highly interpretative: think about literature and how some literature expert would interpret Poe's books (sorry only classic US author i know beside Kerouac), except worse. Still, it's clear ancient egyptians loved their puzzles, the clear interpretation of what they mean is what elude us.

Poe didn't really write books. He's most famous for poems and short stories. He wrote one novel ( The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket) and published a collection of poems.

Not that it matters. Just a bit of trivia. The only thing you need to know is that he's a gazillion times better than Kerouac, who did write books and shouldn't have.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#83

Post by KennyBlanken »

gopher_space wrote: post #61
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #58

Would they ever give the thing back though?

The whole idea of giving things back to Egypt is currently tainted by the complete lack of professional respect everyone else on the planet has for the guy running things there. I could picture institutions saying they'll send artifacts back and then just dragging their feet until he retires.

"Gee, sorry my ancestors stole that thing from that house a hundred plus years ago. Too bad there's a jerk living in the house right at this moment, that's why it hasn't been returned yet."

It's a little strange to have so little morals you accept a stolen gift from conquerors and don't make the slightest effort to return it over a considerable period of time, even after doing such a thing becomes the accepted moral thing to do...and then suddenly develop a conscience and set of morals so particular that "who is running the country" means you can't return it.

It's almost like it's a very thin excuse and not a legitimate reason.

It doesn't belong to France, and it's not France's place to decide that they don't like the particular guy running things at that moment and thus refuse to return it.

Really, Europe just has a massive problem refusing to acknowledge any of the brutally oppressive colonialism it was responsible for across centuries...

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#84

Post by caulkboots »

pdw wrote: post #44
helpfulclippy wrote: post #10

I've seen a few articles on this now. They keep calling it a "secret" message and "hieroglyphic cryptography," but then talk about how sufficiently literate people are supposed to understand it, and the content is along the lines of "The god-king cannot be dethroned" and "Make offerings to the gods." Nothing about this sounds like it was intended to be kept secret or confidential from anyone. This seems more like fan…

Crypto-hieroglyphic writing is a real thing: https://www.britannica.com/topic/hieroglyphic-writing/Crypto... Such writing would give non-standard meanings to signs, or drawn them in non-standard ways, or use entirely invented signs. It would be a puzzle to work out the meaning, and I imagine most people who weren't very literate would be stumped. They certainly stumped egyptologists for a while when the first example…

I believe enciphered hieroglyphics were covered by David Kahn in The Codebreakers. If memory serves, literate people wouldn't have too much difficulty solving them. The idea was the the plaintext would seem more significant to the reader/codebreaker after they labored for a few hours or a few days working it out. The labor required would add emphasis to what was being communicated.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#85

Post by krapp »

shakow wrote: post #80
krapp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans routinely destroyed the artifacts of any culture they considered heretical. They tore down Greek and Roman temples to build churches on the ruins. They stripped the Coliseum for parts. They made soup out of mummies and traded grave goods as baubles. The premise that they somehow deserve to be considered the librarians and guardians of the very cultures they colonized and exploited is an absurd, and implicit…

Whereas Antiquity Egyptians were well-known for being a well-behaving people, that never ever dared touch their neighbor's property? Didn't countless Pharaohs proudly inscribed in stone how many foes they killed, how many lands they conquered, how much riches they pillaged?

So you - and a lot of people judging from the comments - believe that it's perfectly legitimate to steal from someone who has ever, themselves, done anything in the past you consider wrong. That morality, ethics and laws should only protect the blameless, and everyone and everything else is fair game.

I have to admit I don't agree, I personally think the morality of a crime doesn't depend upon a value judgement of the of the victim. Theft is theft even if you steal from thieves, and two wrongs as they say don't make a right. But I suppose some people need to assume the victims of imperialism had it coming, but of course they themselves don't.

Good luck with that, and keep your doors locked.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#86

Post by bigstrat2003 »

chasil wrote: post #77
autoexec wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why give it back? It seems like a nice gift.

It was a gift from the Ottoman Empire. That political entity no longer exists, and the people of Egypt would likely never have willingly parted with the many obelisks and other historical artifacts that have left their shores.

Maybe not, but:

1. You need to draw the line somewhere. It is simply not possible (nor even desirable) to redress all historical wrongs. It seems reasonable to not attempt to redress wrongs which are out of living memory for anyone involved.

2. As others pointed out, the people currently living in Egypt is not the same people who lived there when these things were built anyway, and there was a hell of a lot of conquest to get from there to here. This is not a case where the Ottomans stole it from the original owners. That makes this not a very good candidate for giving it back.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#87

Post by bigstrat2003 »

orwin wrote: post #26
thanatos519 wrote: post #16

[flagged]

No way this was ever said. No way. It's so wild it's funny. I ought to follow US news more (and sorry for people who live there).

It's genuinely not bad as long as you don't have terminally online syndrome. The vast majority of the country, even people who don't like Trump, gets along with their everyday lives without stressing out about him. It's just that most people commenting on forums online are terminally online and get very worked up about things.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#88

Post by bigstrat2003 »

autoexec wrote: post #71
tough wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans "purchased" new york from the natives after feeding them alcohol to decimate their population for a few dollars.

Everything in America is "pillaged" I guess and should be returned. Seems unrealistic.

Honestly, I would have more respect for people who do land acknowledgements if they tried to give the land back. I don't think they should (because I believe that we shouldn't attempt to fix the sins of those who are long since dead), but at least then they would be attempting to walk the walk. Right now it comes off very poorly because people go "this land belongs to the natives" and then happily continue to possess it as if saying "well you own this technically" makes everything alright.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#89

Post by creer »

permo-w wrote: post #48
thechao wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect, that in the context of "reputable academically sound Egyptologist" the number "6" is a bumper crop of Egyptologists. The set of reputable academics in these fields is always a lot smaller than you'd like. I think that's why there's so many cranks.

I struggle with Egyptology as a whole. you watch even mainstream, reputable documentaries on Ancient Egypt and there is a lot of what and little why, and it makes you wonder how much of it is actual science and how much of it is just the most exciting available interpretation of the facts to please the Egyptians/draw in viewers. the Egyptian authorities want tourists, and control archaeology licenses tightly, and "we…

This is a strange viewpoint, do you care to elaborate? I mean, for ancient Egypt, understanding the writing has its origin in a very clear, well understood event and a very specific researcher's career (Rosetta Stone and Champollion), after which there is a sea of research papers which anyone can go and (spend an education and career) judging for themselves. The documentaries easily skip all that but it's not a big mystery that "all that" is there?

It would be nice if someone created a video similar to the "distance ladder" video but for hieroglyphs. Beyond Champollion and into the progress to now. That would be fascinating. It may exist already.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#90

Post by defrost »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #88
autoexec wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in America is "pillaged" I guess and should be returned. Seems unrealistic.

Honestly, I would have more respect for people who do land acknowledgements if they tried to give the land back. I don't think they should (because I believe that we shouldn't attempt to fix the sins of those who are long since dead), but at least then they would be attempting to walk the walk. Right now it comes off very poorly because people go "this land belongs to the natives" and then happily continue to possess…

You must be well impressed with Gough Whitlam and Eddie Mabo et al then.

> to fix the sins of those who are long since dead

A good number of land right issues and acts of racism began with those long dead and continued forward under the actions of generations that followed, perpetuated in some form by some still living.

In a US context there are still current acts of administration that impact native title and rights to reservations that are current and contentious.

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