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How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

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Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#81

Post by brazzy »

revorad wrote: post #66
pjbeardsley wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in no way saying that Apple's business practices are above scrutiny, but I think it's unfair to claim they are "making developers fall over each other". When the App Store debuted, prices started out in the $5-$20 range, but the market has settled around the $1.99 price point because that's where it ended up. They're not going around telling developers how to price their apps. It may be Apple's petri dish, but th…

Exactly! $5-$20 was the peak! And the market hasn't settled at $1.99. The market has settled at $ZERO. I quote from http://www.apple.com/iphone/from-the-app-store/ : Over 500,000 apps. For work, play, and everything in between. The apps that come with your iPhone are just the beginning. Browse the App Store to find hundreds of thousands more. The more apps you download, the more you realize there’s almost no limit to…

> The market has settled at $ZERO.

No. It is in the process of settling at $WHATEVER_WE_CAN_MAKE_YOU_PAY

These guys correctly observed that free apps + IAP are getting the most REVENUE. Not installs, revenue. What they failed to understand is that this only happens when you do exactly the one thing they absolutely did not want to do: milking each customer for what he/she is worth aka "capturing the consumer surplus".

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#82

Post by brazzy »

ctdonath wrote: post #72
ja27 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm right, this was a fantastic job of link-bait. Users, especially parents, hate in-app purchases. But that's the way the app market has gone for now. So far I've been able to resist but except for educational apps (schools have the worst time paying for IAPs), I'll likely be doing a lot of freemium apps. So this hits a sweet spot to vent hate for IAPs and the freemium model. Great job guys.

Users hate in-app purchases Yup. For what little it's worth, "IAP" is a big red flag to me, a warning that the "free" app will prove annoying and/or expensive. I'll usually not download any with it, having learned the hard way (right or wrong) that at these prices it's better to pay the couple bucks up front and get the full clean app, than get "free" and have to wrangle with brokenness and intrusive ads and still en…

Sounds pretty dysfunctional. Surely, being able to try something for free before buying it is a positive thing? A shame that it's being done badly then.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#83

Post by patio11 »

revorad wrote: post #56
rscale wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's awesome that they didn't want to engage in predatory behavior, but what they did was self-predatory, which is no better! The opposite of exploitative game design isn't a life of asceticism; it's value for money. I'm not a big gamer, but on the first page of my phone's springboard I count $300+ of apps, some of which have ongoing subscription costs. That's money that I paid because I got value. I'm happy with eve…

Ah yes, I wrote about that yesterday - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4378546 Tripit and every other VC-backed company is in a completely different business than indie devs making apps. The product that companies like Tripit are selling, right from the beginning, is the company itself, not some free or cheap app. The app is just a marketing vehicle to increase the price of the company. The amazing thing is that…

For what it is worth, I have historically taken pains to avoid selling on HN.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#84

Post by brazzy »

phatbyte wrote: post #63

I'm going to be honest here, I look at IAP games as spam. I don't care how much time you game took or how well it's designed, as soon as I see that I must buy coins/points to upgrade weapons, levels etc, the little 10 year old nes kid in me dies a little. Everybody is so worry about monetization and get rich that they forgot the fundamental rule on a game: Let it be fun and enjoyable, let it be immersive. How would y…

The numbers say that yours is the minority view. Like it or not, IAP works really, really well.

And it can be done in a way that does not compromise the game design. These guys tried to do the most simple variant of that (try before you buy), they just executed very, very badly.

Heck, I wouldn't mind DLC at all if it provided decent value for money instead of costing $10 for a measly 1.5 hours of gameplay compared to the $60 for 40+ hours in the main game.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#85

Post by Jare »

jonny_eh wrote: post #3

I think it's important for stories like this to get out there to contrast with big successes like Super Meat Boy and Fez (which were featured in the awesome movie "Indie Game: The Movie").

The Squids story reached some notoriety and is much more interesting: http://thegamebakers.com/money-and-the-app-store-a-few-figur...

Not exactly a failure story (their strategy eventually paid off I think), but certainly far from the big hits.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#86

Post by revorad »

awolf wrote: post #75
revorad wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! $5-$20 was the peak! And the market hasn't settled at $1.99. The market has settled at $ZERO. I quote from http://www.apple.com/iphone/from-the-app-store/ : Over 500,000 apps. For work, play, and everything in between. The apps that come with your iPhone are just the beginning. Browse the App Store to find hundreds of thousands more. The more apps you download, the more you realize there’s almost no limit to…

>The market has settled at $ZERO. You're wrong. There are plenty of paid applications sold on the App Store that make decent money. One of my paid applications is bringing in enough to live on, with little maintenance, and without being on any of the App Store charts. Aside from blind Apple hate, what exactly are basing your argument that the App Store is filled with hopeless developers and un-sustainable business? D…

awolf, thanks for chiming in based on your experience. I'm really pleased to hear you've had success with your apps.

I'm sorry about my hyperbolic tones earlier. It's just that there's so much blind hype about the app stores, that it upsets me to see indie devs getting lured in and going bust. I don't hate Apple. I think they are brilliant.

I haven't done huge amounts of research on the distribution of outcomes for developers in the app store, but the typical prices are so low that you'd have to sell to a hell of a lot of people to make any decent money. Moreover, most devs only charge a small one-time upfront fee or IAP, which means you need to keep finding more customers or churning out apps.

I know how hard it is to make a good business even with a SaaS recurring revenue product. A life-time value of $2 sounds horrifying.

There is no doubt in my mind that some people are making good money on the app store. My point is that they could be doing a lot better in another market, with lower risks.

You mention one of your apps is making you enough money to live on. Do you expect that to carry on for a while? Or will you need to make more products? If you're willing to share, I'm curious to know more about your business, but I'll understand if you don't want to share too much.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#87

Post by revorad »

patio11 wrote: post #83
revorad wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I wrote about that yesterday - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4378546 Tripit and every other VC-backed company is in a completely different business than indie devs making apps. The product that companies like Tripit are selling, right from the beginning, is the company itself, not some free or cheap app. The app is just a marketing vehicle to increase the price of the company. The amazing thing is that…

For what it is worth, I have historically taken pains to avoid selling on HN.

Hey, there're some bingo lovers among us :-)

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#88

Post by osxwm »

patio11 wrote: post #83
revorad wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I wrote about that yesterday - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4378546 Tripit and every other VC-backed company is in a completely different business than indie devs making apps. The product that companies like Tripit are selling, right from the beginning, is the company itself, not some free or cheap app. The app is just a marketing vehicle to increase the price of the company. The amazing thing is that…

For what it is worth, I have historically taken pains to avoid selling on HN.

Keep telling yourself that. Just because we're not the audience of BCC or AR doesn't mean you're not selling something to us.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#89

Post by skyhook_mockups »

patio11 wrote: post #83
revorad wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I wrote about that yesterday - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4378546 Tripit and every other VC-backed company is in a completely different business than indie devs making apps. The product that companies like Tripit are selling, right from the beginning, is the company itself, not some free or cheap app. The app is just a marketing vehicle to increase the price of the company. The amazing thing is that…

For what it is worth, I have historically taken pains to avoid selling on HN.

At this point you are the product Patrick. The second you decide to monetize the patio11 brand (maybe by writing a book?) you're going to print money.

PS: write a book.

Re: How an app with 200,000 downloads led to developer homelessness

#90

Post by solutionyogi »

osxwm wrote: post #88
patio11 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it is worth, I have historically taken pains to avoid selling on HN.

Keep telling yourself that. Just because we're not the audience of BCC or AR doesn't mean you're not selling something to us.

Wow. I don't like this comment at all. I have been following Patrick's online participation when there was no Hacker News and all geeks (including Patrick) used to hang out at Business of Software forum (at JOS). I can definitely say that he genuinely likes to share his knowledge and help others out. I really don't think he is getting any BCC or AR customers through his participation in these forums.
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