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AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

bbc.com

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Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#81

Post by awesomeMilou »

Simulacra wrote: post #68

This is ridiculous, it's subjective, and it's really punitive in a political way. The AFD has made huge gains in Germany, the people voted for that, how dare the intelligence service say oh, this is far right. It's the same as if they had said, it was far left. The government has no business in deciding which party can field candidates. That's the voters to choose.

This is ridiculous, it's subjective, and it's really punitive in a political way. The NSDAP has made huge gains in Germany, the people voted for that, how dare the intelligence service say oh, this is far right. It's the same as if they had said, it was far left. The government has no business in deciding which party can field candidates. That's the voters to choose.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#82

Post by flohofwoe »

tharmas wrote: post #61
lostlogin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the AfD, ‘Senior members have been disgraced for playing down Nazi war crimes and accepting suspicious payments from Russia and China. There were calls to ban the party when it was reported party members were at a meeting of neo-Nazis where a “master plan” to expel millions of people from Germany was discussed, including asylum seekers, foreigners with residency rights and “unassimilated citizens”. The AfD…

>accepting suspicious payments from Russia Do you really think the Russians would ever support a Neo Nazi party after what happened in WW2? That's propaganda.

The current Russian government supports every movement that may help to destabilize Europe, extreme left or extreme right ideologies only matter to them as a tool for targeting specific demographics by their propaganda industry.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#83

Post by danhor »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #62
danhor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFD obviously still exists so a court has not banned them. Innocent until proven guilty. A court can only ban them after the parliament has voted to ban them. One of the hurdles on getting the parliament to vote on this topic has been the outstanding decision by this body, if it's really "gesichert rechtsextrem". At least in many previous cases surrounding this question (mostly libel cases), courts have argued that…

> There would be no reason to ban a party if they could be ignored (see the NPD) But this is the problem. It means that a party being illegal isn't such a big deal in and of itself. It's only a problem if it challenges the mainstream parties. You can see why people would think it's just a political maneuver if they're trying to ban X party only when many people vote for them. Bonus points for this party portending to…

> But this is the problem. It means that a party being illegal isn't such a big deal in and of itself.

Yes, this is what the constitutional court decided.

> If some party is illegal for whatever reason, it should be banned right away.

It should be hard (and is very hard) to ban a party. Thus if every party illegal should be banned right away, a large amount of effort would need to go into banning by the highest legislative and judicial bodies in the nation. It's furthermore quite hard to definitively establish a party as such, which further makes such things much slower (calls to ban the AfD have been happening for more than a decade now).

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#84

Post by archagon »

tharmas wrote: post #66

The more austerity for the people the more popular extremist parties will become. Banning them will just stoke the fire. The ruling clases are blinded by their greed. Throw the starving people more than a few crumbs and the appeal of extremist parties will drain away. Its politics 101.

Except the extremist parties intend to impoverish the people even further. (And don't even bother hiding it, for the most part.)

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#85

Post by tastyface »

tharmas wrote: post #61
lostlogin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the AfD, ‘Senior members have been disgraced for playing down Nazi war crimes and accepting suspicious payments from Russia and China. There were calls to ban the party when it was reported party members were at a meeting of neo-Nazis where a “master plan” to expel millions of people from Germany was discussed, including asylum seekers, foreigners with residency rights and “unassimilated citizens”. The AfD…

>accepting suspicious payments from Russia Do you really think the Russians would ever support a Neo Nazi party after what happened in WW2? That's propaganda.

Are you kidding? The Russian ruling class *adores* the global far-right. They don't see them as Nazis, but as kin.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#86

Post by sincerecook »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #75
sincerecook wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting question is why having a different definition of the German people than "anyone who happened to come here and has lived here for a while" should be considered an extreme position. Throwing out all history and ancestry as a core component of the identity of a group of people seems rather like the extreme view.

It seems like the difference is between a cultural understanding and a legal one. The legal bar to be considered German is citizenship, which is what is being discussed in the context of a political party's official policy. It would be an extreme view to say a person who immigrated to Germany and recently attained citizenship has more German ancestry than someone who was born in Germany to parents who were born in Ge…

[dead]

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#87

Post by nani8ot »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #59
MaKey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone's an extremist, that word soon loses its meaning. See: the boy who cried wolf. People are getting tired of this crap and can see trying to outlaw a growing party for "extremism" as a shameless political tactic. Which means actual extremists may go unnoticed. What makes you think that the AfD isn't a right-wing extremist party?

Nothing. They could be literally Hitler or literally Gandi for all I know. I'm not in Germany and I don't follow them. The only contact I have is reading French newspapers about how some "far right" party is gaining traction over there. I did note that now that they're gaining more votes, they've become more extremist (according to the same French media). Bonus points for them being considered somewhat "close" to the…

> Bonus points for them being considered somewhat "close" to the French RN (which the latter have denied – don't know what that's worth).

Rassemblement National denied being close to the AfD because of how right-extremist the AfD is. The AfD was thrown out of the far-right group in the EU parliament because other EU far-right parties didn't want to get associated with this right-extremist party.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#88

Post by int_19h »

tharmas wrote: post #61
lostlogin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the AfD, ‘Senior members have been disgraced for playing down Nazi war crimes and accepting suspicious payments from Russia and China. There were calls to ban the party when it was reported party members were at a meeting of neo-Nazis where a “master plan” to expel millions of people from Germany was discussed, including asylum seekers, foreigners with residency rights and “unassimilated citizens”. The AfD…

>accepting suspicious payments from Russia Do you really think the Russians would ever support a Neo Nazi party after what happened in WW2? That's propaganda.

I'm Russian, and yes, absolutely, Russia would do that so long as said party is friendly towards Russia.

It's not like it would even be the first time. USSR was very friendly to Nazi Germany in 1939-40.

And in modern Russian parlance, the words "Nazi" and "fascist" don't have any semantic load other than "our enemies". For example, EU is "Nazi", while https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group is not.

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#89

Post by ethbr1 »

_mlbt wrote: post #77
PurpleRamen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider Trump as regular right wing? Or more extreme? Do you think the deportations of "illegals" happening at the moment are justified? What about deportations on legals non-white people? The main reason for the classification seems to be their worldview based on "Blood" and what they consider as a "True German", and how they want to deport (or worse) anyone who does not match this view. Their plans are simi…

Trump is complicated. He doesn't neatly fit into the boxes that our politicians usually fit in. He's neither fully right nor fully left. As I have said elsewhere, I think the left versus right wing distinction is no longer suitable for talking about the current political climate. The traditional politicians from both parties despise him. The Republican rank and file have only accepted him because of his massive popul…

I'll bite, on chance this is a product of the media streams you've been watching instead of innate racism.

> There are several cases of people who have been violently assaulted or even murdered by violent gang members and criminals who came here illegally.

There are also many times the number of cases of illegal immigrants living normal, productive lives and contributing to their communities, if we're going to tie the things we mention to statistical reality.

> they are a costly strain upon our infrastructure and social support systems.

They power the bulk of American construction, agricultural, service, and landscaping industries.

> They have exacerbated already sky high housing costs because they need to live somewhere.

Illegal immigration is a drop in the bucket compared to private equity snapping up homes and rent price-fixing via RealPage et al.

> When they get sick they go to the emergency room because they lack health insurance.

As do many US citizen, thankfully all protected by EMTALA. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_...

> Many of them turn to crime because their opportunities for legal employment are non-existent.

I'm guessing you haven't worked too many blue collar jobs in your life...? I.e. kitchen, construction, or landscaping?

> They are also a burden on our already struggling public education system, particularly since so many of them do not speak fluent English.

Or, having to go through hell to get here, they're more motivated than their citizen by birth peers.

> They also depress wages.

You just said above they can't find jobs. Which is it? They're getting too few jobs or too many?

> There is a myth that they perform jobs that Americans don't want to do. The truth is that they perform jobs for cheaper than Americans are willing to do them.

You really don't seem like you've ever talked to a farmer. Ask one about hiring hardworking labor sometime?

Re: AfD classified as extreme-right by German intelligence

#90

Post by int_19h »

_mlbt wrote: post #77
PurpleRamen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider Trump as regular right wing? Or more extreme? Do you think the deportations of "illegals" happening at the moment are justified? What about deportations on legals non-white people? The main reason for the classification seems to be their worldview based on "Blood" and what they consider as a "True German", and how they want to deport (or worse) anyone who does not match this view. Their plans are simi…

Trump is complicated. He doesn't neatly fit into the boxes that our politicians usually fit in. He's neither fully right nor fully left. As I have said elsewhere, I think the left versus right wing distinction is no longer suitable for talking about the current political climate. The traditional politicians from both parties despise him. The Republican rank and file have only accepted him because of his massive popul…

> neither fully right nor fully left.

There's a reason why fascists and Nazis broadly refer to themselves as the "third position".

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