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The future of solar doesn't track the sun

terraformindustries.wordpress.com

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Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#81

I just spent 6 years living off-grid, running 5kw of solar, and 14kWh of storage. I setup a fixed array that I welded together myself. I could certainly see that tracking wasn't worth it even then. However, in the off grid-setting I did discover some nuance. Sometimes you could really do with some power around sunset or sunrise. In the winter, being able to more reliably run my air-source heat pump at sun-up would ha…

What is the appeal of living off-grid?

You don’t have to be around other people, and all the hassles that human society and population density entail.

Some people are really into that. I’m really into same-day Amazon delivery and 30 minute latency on fresh pizza that I didn’t have to cook.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#82
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but, 70% of MY! yearly households electricity consumption is literally into [PV!] hot water. Hot water tank is cheapest energy storage device on planet. and i do not have to worry to shower in noon, i can just charge my water tank during day, even when im not home. and use hot water in evening. for very little price - no need to use heat pump, resistive heater is super cheap. hot water tank can be made even DIY to lo…

I read, and appreciated, your entire comment - thank you. You describe a simple and elegant solution to some portions of these problems and what you are doing with your hot water "battery" is smart. I am forced, however, to ask: Where do you live and how large is your family ? My suspicion is that you do not live in the United States and your family is relatively small ... ? Modern, "first world" ("global north" ?) 2…

Everyone should calculate how much is consuming in kWh, recalculate gas into kWh, wood into kWh, propane into kWh.... then it starts making sense for ordinary people. Even for how much energy leaves their house. To use kW / kWh for everything.

" 1)- tankless"

more than half of USA has water tanks. both water tanks and tankless heaters have expected working life, after taht they have to be replaced either way.

Tankless heaters are more efficient if you think only about AMOUNT of energy, but water tanks are there to lower your PRICE of hot water. (or spread load over longer time for usecase as your offgrid) So yes, with tankless you are doing best in standard "old" grid situation, where price for electricity for customer was same throughout day, (some tariffs can have different price in night) (or when you ask Ask This Old House)

AND with PV! on roof and tank in basement, households are providing service for utility because A) they do not export solar at noon, they are putting that energy to water tank, B) they do not import energy during evening peak hours. so less generation / "base load" needed to exist, to operate, service, manufacture.

but there are new things like solar export which will change grid. and people have to adjust, or they can just install expensive battery paid with gov subsidies (by "utility")... residential customer can either use cheap electricity during day to heat water tank or utility can charge for "stabilising" of grid multiples of that price.

so customers incentive should be to have hot water from PV on his own roof. and when they do not have enough solar energy they can charge rest from grid. and lowering need for importing from grid by 80+% per year... for hot water energy.

"2)dryer "

how much is that kWh ? can it run during day when there is availability of PV ? Or atleast one of those cycles can run during day?

" 3) electric car "

I am one of them but unfortunately i am working from home and have nonstandard schedule (20-45 miles per day + once per week trip to buy groceries in town 130 miles ) so i can charge my car from PV, not many people can do that. but they can have water tank on PV and car on grid... or if they use one car only sporadically, then that one can maybe charge from PV ?

my electric car can be charged by 2kW from standard outlet for 10 hours to add 62 miles of range, in summer when i do not want huge loads or i can connect it to faster charger. one car takes daily roughly same amount of energy as 2 people need for hot water...

"4) appliances "

how much is that kWh ? starting current can be higher, sustain power can be lower. starting power can be lowered by using "starter circuit" - bunch of capacitors connected to motor, but lot of motor apliances already have it. coffee percolator is essentially water tank so you are already doing it ;) 20A is not much, some appliances can be connected to 240v if it is available. or adding more circuit breakers if you have slot for them, and spread loads between circuits.

"5) rest" not waste, save, use on site first, then grid. most people live grid first... i do not mind grid

im not saying everyone should go off-grid, because high-rises can not. but everyone who can, should atleast be able to have 5-10 kWp PV on roof just for hot water, and it can be used in emergency for other things (not necessarily same lifestyle). such small pv + hot water tank as a predictable load connected to well sized PV can make PV be payed sooner. and having connection to grid, with possibility of getting payed for export of excess in future for powering highrises...

my system got payed in 6 years because i use a lot of energy directly. lifetime of inverter is presumably 10 years and panels 20 years so i have presumably next 4 years energy for free. then i have to replace inverter,... if those devices last longer, saving is even bigger.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#85
post #79
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read, and appreciated, your entire comment - thank you. You describe a simple and elegant solution to some portions of these problems and what you are doing with your hot water "battery" is smart. I am forced, however, to ask: Where do you live and how large is your family ? My suspicion is that you do not live in the United States and your family is relatively small ... ? Modern, "first world" ("global north" ?) 2…

Americans basically live like energy is unlimited, free and has no side effects, the rest of the world doesn't have that chance, last time I checked the average US household used anywhere between 3x and 4x more electricity than the average EU household They tend to prefer huge houses with relatively complex designs (less optimal in term of area/volume ratio) / poor insulation, they make up for it by relying on tech f…

"Ordinary European household" will change even lower :

Crisis of 2008 made EU to think about resiliency so they asked all kinds of economists, physicist, other science people what should be done to provided that and one of those things implemented was building energy efficiency directive [https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-...]

which progressively increased demands on building sector to provide citizens with "low energy" housing. and currently most states of EU have requirement to build houses where defacto energy need for yearly heating of a house is lower then energy yearly demand for hot water (hot ater can not be lowered significantly without heat pumps - COP3+)

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#86
post #83

Nature has come up with moving limbs on animals, but none of the trees seem to be tracking the sun. Branches are in fixed positions.

There are some plants that track the sun, e.g. https://youtu.be/w-adcjH-xyk?si=Pcx4ucVe1oVwbdH4

It's definitely the exception rather than the rule though.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#87

I just spent 6 years living off-grid, running 5kw of solar, and 14kWh of storage. I setup a fixed array that I welded together myself. I could certainly see that tracking wasn't worth it even then. However, in the off grid-setting I did discover some nuance. Sometimes you could really do with some power around sunset or sunrise. In the winter, being able to more reliably run my air-source heat pump at sun-up would ha…

What is the appeal of living off-grid?

Sometimes the appeal is not in the "off-grid" itself, but in living in a remote location where having access to the grid is impossible or inconvenient (it does not have to be too remote either to not have easy access to the grid).

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#88
post #21

Compelling analysis. But if hail damage is the primary concern, tracking seems like an X/Y solution. What about eg anti hail netting that can be rolled out when the weather forecast predicts hail? It seems to me like a middle ground might be automated deployment of hail protection, which by definition has lower aero loading than what amounts to a big semiconductor sail.

i used standard chain link fence on top of my small greenhouse and it works even with such big "holes", no mechanism, just manual labor but needs good forecast which can be issue.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#89
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read, and appreciated, your entire comment - thank you. You describe a simple and elegant solution to some portions of these problems and what you are doing with your hot water "battery" is smart. I am forced, however, to ask: Where do you live and how large is your family ? My suspicion is that you do not live in the United States and your family is relatively small ... ? Modern, "first world" ("global north" ?) 2…

Everyone should calculate how much is consuming in kWh, recalculate gas into kWh, wood into kWh, propane into kWh.... then it starts making sense for ordinary people. Even for how much energy leaves their house. To use kW / kWh for everything. " 1)- tankless" more than half of USA has water tanks. both water tanks and tankless heaters have expected working life, after taht they have to be replaced either way. Tankles…

50 degrees of latitude, north temperate zone, temperate climate,

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#90
post #80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't think I would be comfortable off grid without 4x+ that size. Of course, environments vary so significantly that these numbers don't translate well when discussing them without geographic context. My primary concerns would be consecutive cloudy days, and winters with very short days. While my actual heating/cooling needs are more mild than global averages, I think the combination of short daylight hou…

In these sorts of rare situations it is of course possible to run a generator to charge everything up. Off-grid doesn’t mean on an island. The insane energy density of fossil fuels means this is an excellent “emergency” back-up plan should the sun not shine often enough.

I'm not sure it's rare to live about 45°N, where we start to see >9 hours of sunlight in the winter. The intersection of places that are both above 45°N and very cloudy (Portland, Seattle, London, Detroit, Copenhagen, Dublin, Vancouver) or in high altitude probably includes a good chunk of HN readers. Northern Europe gets down to about 6 hours of daylight in the winter. If you're in one of these regions, and you plan to use a generator to augment your energy needs, I don't think that's considered an emergency as much as a secondary power source. If one of your goals is decreasing carbon emissions then a diesel generator is going to set that back.

Other regions will have their own considerations, but the primary concern is balancing harvesting sunlight with heating/cooling requirements. I'm just encouraging people to do their own homework for their own situation when considering off grid. I've seen a lot of people under build and end up spending way too much to heat their homes in winter.

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