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The Atari 1200XL fiasco

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Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#81

Post by bsder »

exceptione wrote: post #61
mixmastamyk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux distros are rewriting their installers and partition tools in web technologies these days. Hard to believe but the direction is clear, no one cares about local UI toolkits.

I didn't know that? That is hitting a new low. But maybe it should not surprise me, C/C++ got out of fashion (with good reasons), but the devs lost the UI toolkit with it. The average dev does not command a language with an ecosystem that is up to the task. So it is some slow Python + some crapshoot UI. Linux finally has an option for good, performant UI, written in a sensible high level language with a vast standard…

> Look at HN, people hate the electron stuff. There is just a shortage of competent programmers.

The problem is that, to first order, the web is the only thing that exists. To second order, the web and Windows are the only things that exist. So, any GUI toolkit needs to get traction there first--which is exactly what Electron does.

HN readership, of course, don't care about either of those so anything they develop are doomed to fail from the very start.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#82

Post by guenthert »

os2warpman wrote: post #36
ilamont wrote: post #21

Reports of other software incompatibilities due to the ROM changes would start to come out once the 1200XL was actually released and got into user’s hands, hurting its reputation. That wasn’t as big a deal in the 80s as it is now. Reputation was limited to real life friends and maybe a few homegrown newsletters or computer clubs. Very few people were using the Internet to share opinions in the early 1980s, so “reputa…

>That wasn’t as big a deal in the 80s as it is now. It was a big deal for me. Software expenses were a huge portion of the cost of owning a computer. Almost always the price of the computer was less than the cost of buying software to run on the thing. Letter Perfect was around $300. If it didn't run on the 1200XL I'm not shelling out $800 for the computer and another $300 for a compatible word processor. I am convin…

"I am convinced that cross-vendor incompatibility was THE reason for CP/M's failure. Not anti-competitive behavior, not shenanigans, but the fact that if you spent $495 on the Kaypro version of Wordstar and then bought an Osborne, it wouldn't work. Same Z80, same CP/M, wouldn't work."

But CP/M had a well defined API. Compliant programs would work on different vendor's computer, much like in the MS-DOS domain. The key difference was, that CP/M had no well-defined disk format, i.e. you couldn't just swap disks (for evaluation purpose only, of course) with your buddy if he didn't happen to own the same type of computer; you had first to transfer the software via other means, e.g. serial interface (perhaps using kermit). A bridge too far for most casual computer users.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#83

Post by Suppafly »

justin66 wrote: post #63
Suppafly wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you never encounter anyone who says "yeah, I was the guy who made the whole thing fail" Because that was usually a business decision and not a technical one.

Rereading the comment I made which you're responding to, I can only assume you do not consider those making business decisions to be... people? That seems a bit harsh.

nah, it's just that many projects are canceled or fail because of poor business decisions despite being perfectly usable platforms. Those business decisions are rarely made by one guy, and those sorts also aren't the types that give interviews in tech magazines and podcasts discussing their failures.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#84

Post by exceptione »

bsder wrote: post #81
exceptione wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know that? That is hitting a new low. But maybe it should not surprise me, C/C++ got out of fashion (with good reasons), but the devs lost the UI toolkit with it. The average dev does not command a language with an ecosystem that is up to the task. So it is some slow Python + some crapshoot UI. Linux finally has an option for good, performant UI, written in a sensible high level language with a vast standard…

> Look at HN, people hate the electron stuff. There is just a shortage of competent programmers. The problem is that, to first order, the web is the only thing that exists. To second order, the web and Windows are the only things that exist. So, any GUI toolkit needs to get traction there first --which is exactly what Electron does. HN readership, of course, don't care about either of those so anything they develop a…

I think you mean that in terms of commercial success? I could understand that at least a little bit, but I was mainly thinking about free (simple) system utilities, that still get shipped as complete browsers.

Bonkers. But for desktop use there are crazy good options these days, unless one cannot part from their tutorial language, which is these days oneOf {python, typescript}.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#85

Post by bsder »

exceptione wrote: post #84
bsder wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at HN, people hate the electron stuff. There is just a shortage of competent programmers. The problem is that, to first order, the web is the only thing that exists. To second order, the web and Windows are the only things that exist. So, any GUI toolkit needs to get traction there first --which is exactly what Electron does. HN readership, of course, don't care about either of those so anything they develop a…

I think you mean that in terms of commercial success? I could understand that at least a little bit, but I was mainly thinking about free (simple) system utilities, that still get shipped as complete browsers. Bonkers. But for desktop use there are crazy good options these days, unless one cannot part from their tutorial language, which is these days oneOf {python, typescript}.

> But for desktop use there are crazy good options these days

Citation, please? Really, I'd love to know what those options are.

I know of nothing that works particularly well on desktop on more than one OS.

For all its faults, Electron works pretty much the same everywhere ... Windows, Linux, and macOS.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#86

Post by exceptione »

bsder wrote: post #85
exceptione wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean that in terms of commercial success? I could understand that at least a little bit, but I was mainly thinking about free (simple) system utilities, that still get shipped as complete browsers. Bonkers. But for desktop use there are crazy good options these days, unless one cannot part from their tutorial language, which is these days oneOf {python, typescript}.

> But for desktop use there are crazy good options these days Citation, please? Really, I'd love to know what those options are. I know of nothing that works particularly well on desktop on more than one OS. For all its faults, Electron works pretty much the same everywhere ... Windows, Linux, and macOS.

I don't know about how much love JavaFX gets these days, but Java + JavaFX is a strong combo.

For .net you have Avalonia that is also cross-platform.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#87

Post by pjmlp »

bsder wrote: post #62
mrandish wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ex-Atari people talking about what they could have done better As someone super into retro computing now, who also lived through the history getting my first computer in 1981, participating in users groups, reading all the zines, going to regional and national trade shows for 8-bit home computers, etc, this was (and still is) a significant recurring theme. Owners of 8-bit and 16-bit computers in the 80s/early 90s (…

Agreed. The IBM PC wave was going to sweep the 1980s 8-bit computers aside no matter what they did. However, Tandy was the only one that could have survived as they had PC compatibles that were actually better than the original PC computers. Unfortunately, I seem to remember that Tandy had a big accounting/embezzlement thing back about the time that they needed to be hyperfocused on the PC business.

Kind of, on an alternative timeline IBM would have managed to prevent the clones, and in that case there were no PC compatibles.

So while 8 bit would have been swept no matter what, the 16 bit ecosystem would have had another outcome.

Re: The Atari 1200XL fiasco

#88

Post by Swordquest »

SeenNotHeard wrote: post #56
alamortsubite wrote: post #47

Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves and Atari Basketball are two additional games that made use of the 400/800's extra joystick ports. Ali Baba was turn-based, IIRC, so not as exciting of a use case, but playing basketball with three other kids simultaneously was a riot. Very special for the time.

Atari's port of Asteroids also supported four joysticks. You could play melee, co-op, or team mode, with four players on the screen at once. It was a blast. https://www.atarimania.com/8bit/files/Asteroids_manual.pdf

I wrote a four player "Tron lightbikes" game that used all four joysticks. But I was just a kid and didn't really know what I was doing, so there was no collision detection - people being out because they ran into a wall was based on the honor system. lol.
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