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ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

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Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#81

Post by generalizations »

Hizonner wrote: post #74
generalizations wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, I'm not a fan of dystopian prison islands. However, my consistent position has been the risks of the legal machinery itself and its potential for abuse. Now I'm being vindicated and it sucks, and everyone still seems to be upset that the expansive laws they like are now being used in ways they don't like and didn't expect (cue world's tiniest violin). What's interesting is how much of a grey area that the…

> Non-citizens may or may not actually legally merit due process, and to whatever degree they might, they only merit it while "within" the "jurisdiction" of the US. And as far as I can tell, that 'grey area' of how the 14th amendment is read, I missed that bit about the 14th amendment. This has nothing to do with the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment argument is about who gets ius soli citizenship (what they call "b…

> nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The question is whether an illegal immigrant even has access to due process, according to a strict legal reading of the law. This was one of the arguments being thrown around - whether or not "any person" in the above applies to illegal immigrants or just US-born noncitizens (native american indians? I forget).

I think you completely missed the point of my reference to the 14th.

Edit: btw the "within its jurisdiction" phrase above is probably why the supreme court is treading so carefully around the el salvador part of this - they can't give the administration any grounds to point out that el salvador is outside US jurisdiction. That's why all they could say was 'facilitate', and why they had to slap the lower judge's wrist.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#82

Post by generalizations »

dragonwriter wrote: post #73
generalizations wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, I'm not a fan of dystopian prison islands. However, my consistent position has been the risks of the legal machinery itself and its potential for abuse. Now I'm being vindicated and it sucks, and everyone still seems to be upset that the expansive laws they like are now being used in ways they don't like and didn't expect (cue world's tiniest violin). What's interesting is how much of a grey area that the…

> And as far as I can tell, that 'grey area' of how the 14th amendment is read You seem to be radically misreading a condition on conditions at birth that applies to birthright citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment as a modifier on conditions at the time of government action against them that applies to the due process clause of the same amendment, but also , the 14th Amendment has no bearing on whether people hav…

The question is whether an illegal immigrant has access to due process. The 14th has been thrown around in that context since it seems to make references to both due process and the people it is available to.

The question is not what due process entails. The question is who gets access to it. Pretty sure you missed my point fairly thoroughly.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#83

Post by generalizations »

bloppe wrote: post #71
generalizations wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't care about laws Look at the legal analysis, not the sensationalist story: this is IIRC preexisting legal machinery, now being used for a different purpose. You dislike how it is used; I dislike that it exists. We are not the same.

You consider blatantly disregarding a court order "preexisting legal machinery"?

[flagged]

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#84

Post by dragonwriter »

generalizations wrote: post #82
dragonwriter wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as far as I can tell, that 'grey area' of how the 14th amendment is read You seem to be radically misreading a condition on conditions at birth that applies to birthright citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment as a modifier on conditions at the time of government action against them that applies to the due process clause of the same amendment, but also , the 14th Amendment has no bearing on whether people hav…

The question is whether an illegal immigrant has access to due process. The 14th has been thrown around in that context since it seems to make references to both due process and the people it is available to. The question is not what due process entails. The question is who gets access to it. Pretty sure you missed my point fairly thoroughly.

> The 14th has been thrown around in that context since it seems to make references to both due process and the people it is available to.

It makes references to who birthright citizenship applies to (the part that your "jurisdiction" bit comes from): "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

It separately details due process rights against the states, and who they are applicable to, which is all persons: "...nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

Due process against the federal government comes from the 5th Amendment, which was around long before the 14th, but also applies to all persons. "No person [...] shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law."

> The question is not what due process entails. The question is who gets access to it.

The 14th Amendment has nothing to do with that, when the party acting is the federal government. (OTOH, where it does apply, it says exactly the same thing as the provision that does apply to the federal government, that due process applies to every person.)

> Pretty sure you missed my point fairly thoroughly.

I'm pretty sure that you are the one missing the point -- both mine and the Constitution's.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#85

Post by sn9 »

helle253 wrote: post #57
shepherdjerred wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning on emigrating? Just curious. I'm starting to worry it might be the only right option

Not explicitly planning on it currently, but it is something that's in the back of my head. If denaturalizations do start happening, we would have a frank conversation about what to do. I don't know that we would stay in America. The tail risks would simply be too high. I don't know, its frightening to think about. I don't think its LIKELY, yet. but i cant say its UNTHINKABLE anymore.

Consider talking to an immigration lawyer about how you can prepare for if the worst happens.

Like maybe you can have a playbook ready or something. Or have her documents all collected in one place.

(I don't have any expertise here, just spitballing ideas that may be useful.)

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#86

Post by Hizonner »

generalizations wrote: post #81
Hizonner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-citizens may or may not actually legally merit due process, and to whatever degree they might, they only merit it while "within" the "jurisdiction" of the US. And as far as I can tell, that 'grey area' of how the 14th amendment is read, I missed that bit about the 14th amendment. This has nothing to do with the 14th amendment. The 14th amendment argument is about who gets ius soli citizenship (what they call "b…

> nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. The question is whether an illegal immigrant even has access to due process, according to a strict legal reading of the law. This was one of the arguments being thrown around - whether or not "any person" in the above applies to illegal i…

That's about extending due process requirements to the states. That's why it says "any State". It has no effect at all on anything Federal. Federal due process comes from elsewhere. And all of this is 100 percent Federal.

All of the brouhaha around the word "jurisdiction" in the 14th Amendment is about citizenship. Nobody other than you has "thrown around" anything like what you're suggesting.

> Edit: btw the "within its jurisdiction" phrase above is probably why the supreme court is treading so carefully around the el salvador part of this - they can't give the administration any grounds to point out that el salvador is outside US jurisdiction.

The administration has been pointing that out. Loudly and repeatedly. It has some real effects on habeas, as well as on what actions are available to the US Government generally. They're also trying to falsely claim a bunch of effects it doesn't have. But nobody has mentioned or thought about the 14th Amendment, because it's not relevant. At all.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#87

Post by generalizations »

dragonwriter wrote: post #84
generalizations wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether an illegal immigrant has access to due process. The 14th has been thrown around in that context since it seems to make references to both due process and the people it is available to. The question is not what due process entails. The question is who gets access to it. Pretty sure you missed my point fairly thoroughly.

> The 14th has been thrown around in that context since it seems to make references to both due process and the people it is available to. It makes references to who birthright citizenship applies to (the part that your "jurisdiction" bit comes from): "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."…

> and who they are applicable to, which is all persons

Well that’s one of the things being argued, unfortunately. Things can look obvious until you read closer.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#88

Post by dawnerd »

somenameforme wrote: post #59
dawnerd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Read the article. Edit: even if he wasn’t, there’s a proper process for deportations. Sending someone without due process to a supermax prison let alone a country they’re not even from isn’t it.

He was not. As per the article: "In May 2023, Wilmer Gutiérrez left Venezuela with his son Merwil and nephew Luis, traveling through Colombia and the Darién Gap into Panama. The monthlong journey eventually brought them to Ciudad Juárez, Mexico, where they applied for Temporary Protected Status (TPS) through the CBP One app. While waiting for their immigration appointment, they took temporary jobs and slept near the…

No, Trump tried to end TPS on Jan 20th but was blocked by a court order. The Venezuela TPS still stands and was valid when Wilmer was sent off to prison.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/temporary-protected-statu...

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#89

Post by cmurf »

doesnotexist wrote: post #24
adamnemecek wrote: post #7

Is the US legit fascist now?

Well there are now many instances of enforced disappearances.[1] To what the administration likes to call jails in Ecuador, except for the fact jails and prisons are part of legitimate criminal justice systems with judicial review/due process. These can be more accurately described as concentration camps given that they lack the features that would make them legitimate jails or detention facilities. [1] https://www.o…

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/concentrat...

What distinguishes a concentration camp from a prison (in the modern sense) is that it functions outside of a judicial system. The prisoners are not indicted or convicted of any crime by judicial process.

Re: ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'

#90

Post by somenameforme »

dawnerd wrote: post #88
somenameforme wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was not. As per the article: "In May 2023, Wilmer Gutiérrez left Venezuela with his son Merwil and nephew Luis, traveling through Colombia and the Darién Gap into Panama. The monthlong journey eventually brought them to Ciudad Juárez, Mexico, where they applied for Temporary Protected Status (TPS) through the CBP One app. While waiting for their immigration appointment, they took temporary jobs and slept near the…

No, Trump tried to end TPS on Jan 20th but was blocked by a court order. The Venezuela TPS still stands and was valid when Wilmer was sent off to prison. https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/temporary-protected-statu...

Check the dates. The order was issued March 31st. The date in this article mentions March 16th as the date of the individual's detention. he was deported "days later."

It's also unlikely TPS was granted, as the article remains ambiguous on this point which is suggestive of the fact that he was still on 'humanitarian parole' pending a hearing. If there were any other possible angle to try vilify and/or hyperbolize these actions, it's highly unlikely that the media would miss it.

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