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Lead is still bad for your brain

neurofrontiers.blog

81–90 of 192 posts

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#81

Did you know, the world still mines more lead now than it did 50 years ago, at the peak of 'put lead in everything' mania? To me, this says that we still put lead in too many things. Lead is still used for flashing in roofs. It's still used as a mould release when making plastics. It's still used in making dishware. It's still used in bullets. It's still used for all kinds of things which will one day end up in the e…

In my mind, there's only two acceptable uses of lead: radiation (x-ray, gamma ray) shielding, and ICE batteries. Even then, I expect there's much increased demand for those things (and thus, the lead to manufacture them) from 50 years ago.

Don't scream at me, but what about non-industrial, hobby soldering?

AFAIK soldering is not hot enough to vaporize lead.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#82
post #45

This is a great article on the biology of lead exposure. Unfortunately on the exposure side research wasn’t done and it propagates the myth that lead exposure is only an issue for those with lead pipes or lead paint. It’s true that these are the main sources of severe lead exposure. However the article points out that there is no safe level of exposure to lead and these aren’t the main ways we are exposed to lead in…

>stop buying things that have a prop 65 warning (I know prop 65 isn’t perfect, but it’s often a lead warning). That would seem to mean to stop buying an enormous number of things. Extended to locations, it would mean not parking in any enclosed parking lot, or entering a number of different stores. It's not clear to me it's even possible to avoid everything with a prop 65 warning. Unfortunately, the bad incentives in…

There's a good episode of 99% Invisible that discusses Prop 65, including an interview with the original author of Prop 65, David Roe: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/warning-this-podcast-...

Yes, there are a lot of problems with Prop 65, but the podcast also highlights the benefits. Slapping a Prop 65 warning on foodstuffs in particular significantly decreases sales, so it's not something you just do merely to avoid extortionate lawsuits. It incentives testing beforehand, and if you find contaminants to then reformulate. Notwithstanding the seeming ubiquity of Prop 65 warning labels in California, the salient effects are significant and largely hidden--you don't notice all the products that don't have the label, and don't because they were reformulated to avoid the label. Prop 65 was one of the most significant drivers in the US of the removal of lead and other contaminants in products. The author of the bill admits the unintended consequences have been significant, especially harassment lawsuits, but he also argues there aren't really good alternatives that could have achieved what Prop 65 has with a better cost/benefit ratio.

Having an army of private lawyers vigorously prowling for contaminants in products is a pillar of Prop 65's success. You couldn't achieve what Prop 65 has with centralized regulation, not without creating tremendous (i.e. costly in time if not money) bureaucratic hurdles to creating and selling products in the market. Prop 65 is a kind of "ask for forgiveness" model, rather than "ask for permission". The former is generally more preferable if you want to preserve market dynamism and profitability, while also minimizing the risk of regulatory capture, and lax, haphazard enforcement. Moreover, you get the escape hatch of just adding a warning label, without having to take your product off the market.

There is a centralized regulatory aspect to Prop 65--the State of California's list of contaminants--subject to typical bureaucratic and lobbying externalities. But on balance Prop 65 seems defensible, however imperfect. After listening to the podcast, which if anything leaned into Prop 65 criticism, I softened my views on Prop 65.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind, there's only two acceptable uses of lead: radiation (x-ray, gamma ray) shielding, and ICE batteries. Even then, I expect there's much increased demand for those things (and thus, the lead to manufacture them) from 50 years ago.

Even ICE batteries is IMO not a valid use. Lithium batteries are better by almost every metric, and now nearly every model of car battery has a drop-in compatible lithium battery+controller too, so there isn't even an excuse for vehicles currently on the road. Lead batteries contain not just lead, but the H2SO4 needed to dissolve large amounts of it and transport it through watercourses when the plastic case inevitab…

Lead acid batteries still offer far better performance in cold conditions, voltage stability, burst current capacity, and ease of charging.

You can overcome most of these issues, but it comes at a significant cost. I think it could be worth it, especially when you factor in that the lithium ion battery could theoretically pay for itself in longer lifespan, but most buyers would prefer the cheap, familiar, reliable option.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#84

I live with children in a very old house. I would love to be able to measure my children's lead exposure and check things like window paint or house dust for lead content to see how big a problem there is. How do I do that?

There are test kits for at-home usecases like paint and stuff - I think they're pretty reliable. For exposure, you can get blood tests at your GP. They might be absurdly expensive if you're in America, but maybe next time you travel to Europe you can pay privately and get a better deal.

In the US, you can get a lead test directly through Quest Diagnostics, without going through your physician or insurance, if you are near a testing center. Probably costs less too.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#85
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I posted here about how lead pipes during the Roman Empire was bad for the people I was met with a torrent of downvotes right here on Hackernews saying it wasn’t that bad. I’m not optimistic about the future.

I'm sure that contributed to some of the insanity, but they also cooked down wine in lead pots (sapa or defrutum) which caused lead to leach and act as a sweetener. I think they also used this in cooking but this is all from memory so trust but verify!

IIRC they also used lead acetate as a sweetener. It boggles my mind that using enough of that to noticeably impact the flavor of food did not instantly kill people. Meanwhile here we are talking about micrograms!

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#86
post #82
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>stop buying things that have a prop 65 warning (I know prop 65 isn’t perfect, but it’s often a lead warning). That would seem to mean to stop buying an enormous number of things. Extended to locations, it would mean not parking in any enclosed parking lot, or entering a number of different stores. It's not clear to me it's even possible to avoid everything with a prop 65 warning. Unfortunately, the bad incentives in…

There's a good episode of 99% Invisible that discusses Prop 65, including an interview with the original author of Prop 65, David Roe: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/warning-this-podcast-... Yes, there are a lot of problems with Prop 65, but the podcast also highlights the benefits. Slapping a Prop 65 warning on foodstuffs in particular significantly decreases sales, so it's not something you just do merely t…

That's an interesting behind the scenes point of view. But from a consumer point of view:

> you don't notice all the products that don't have the label

...because there are too many with it, so people stopped caring. As a consumer, I would prefer a label that identified the major risks.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#87

Did you know, the world still mines more lead now than it did 50 years ago, at the peak of 'put lead in everything' mania? To me, this says that we still put lead in too many things. Lead is still used for flashing in roofs. It's still used as a mould release when making plastics. It's still used in making dishware. It's still used in bullets. It's still used for all kinds of things which will one day end up in the e…

When I posted here about how lead pipes during the Roman Empire was bad for the people I was met with a torrent of downvotes right here on Hackernews saying it wasn’t that bad. I’m not optimistic about the future.

To be fair lead pipes aren't good, but the other uses in the Roman Empire were probably the cause of far more of the issues.

Especially with hard water (of which the water in Rome is VERY hard[1] today, and if similar sources are used, it stands to reason it was very hard way back when) it forms a scale that drastically reduces the amount that leeches into the water.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-water-hardness-of...

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#88
post #60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EVs have a 12V lead acid battery for standby power and to buffer the 12V accessory system. The solenoids to the traction battery are open when parked and the 12V battery closes them when the car is started. This does mean you might actually need a “jump start” for an EV if the 12V battery is drained, eg from leaving a light on or a fault in the 12V charging system.

I assume that jump starting an EV takes a lot less current than jump starting an ICE due to no need to crank an engine. I'd guess it just needs enough to power the control electronics and close the solenoids to the traction battery? That raises an interesting question: is the power requirement low enough that you could make a hand cranked EV jump starter?

You would be correct.

It needs enough to open the contactors which allows the high voltage battery to send power via the inverter to charge the 12V

My Lithium Ion jump pack is tiny, about the size of two iphones stacked on top of each other, and a single jump uses only a few %.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#89
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EVs have a 12V lead acid battery for standby power and to buffer the 12V accessory system. The solenoids to the traction battery are open when parked and the 12V battery closes them when the car is started. This does mean you might actually need a “jump start” for an EV if the 12V battery is drained, eg from leaving a light on or a fault in the 12V charging system.

Yes, EVs still have a 12V battery, but it’s not always lead acid. Tesla, for example, switched from lead acid to Li-ion 12V batteries in all their models several years ago. So have Porsche, even in combustion models I believe.

They are a lot more expensive though, at least aftermarket.

Re: Lead is still bad for your brain

#90
post #22

> “even if we were to completely stop mining for and using lead (which we aren’t, since the lead-acid battery market is projected to increase in the next years” I’m surprised by this. Modern cars (EVs, at least) have started replacing their 12V lead batteries with Li-ion, which are more durable, store much more energy, and of course are less toxic. But in any case, isn’t the one advantage of lead-acid batteries their…

Most EVs have a 12V lead acid battery for standby power and to buffer the 12V accessory system. The solenoids to the traction battery are open when parked and the 12V battery closes them when the car is started. This does mean you might actually need a “jump start” for an EV if the 12V battery is drained, eg from leaving a light on or a fault in the 12V charging system.

That's because everything in a car is standardized into 12V, but the EV engine run on some hundreds of Volts. It would be dangerous to feed energy from the engine's battery into the rest of the car.

As a sibling said, that doesn't require that you use a lead battery. The only requirement is that it's insulated from the main one.

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