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Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

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Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#81

Post by Aurornis »

mmooss wrote: post #39
bawolff wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science succeeds when people lean towards the side of cynicism instead of optimism. Scientific research should be read critically.

Critical thinking and skepticism are good, but much of what happens on HN is not that. Thinking critically includes, most of all, finding value - you need to think critically (and skeptically) to avoid assigning value to things that don't have it, but you must find value. The goal is to build knowledge - just like the study author needs to find knowledge among flawed data, you must find knowledge among flawed studies…

> you need to think critically (and skeptically) to avoid assigning value to things that don't have it, but you must find value.

This isn’t critical thinking.

This is toxic positivity.

It’s okay to admit that some studies don’t have value to add. If you don’t accept this, you’re going to be tricked by a lot of people trying to get your attention with bad data.

Being able (and willing!) to filter out bad sources, even when they say something you want to hear, is a critically important skill. If you force yourself and others to find something positive about everything then you’re a dream come true to purveyors of low quality or even deliberate misinfo.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#82

Post by mmooss »

Aurornis wrote: post #71
mmooss wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. There isn't a greater collection of expertise in the history of the world than on HN. Edit: I meant to add: What value can we find in this research? It wasn't published as scripture, the perfect answer to all our problems. It's one study of some interesting event…

> Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. The reality of any underpowered study could always be “larger as well as smaller”. This statement doesn’t add anything to the conversation. The mistake is pivoting around poorly structured and underpowered research. > All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. This is a misunderstanding. People who know…

[flagged]

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#83

Post by mmooss »

Aurornis wrote: post #81
mmooss wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical thinking and skepticism are good, but much of what happens on HN is not that. Thinking critically includes, most of all, finding value - you need to think critically (and skeptically) to avoid assigning value to things that don't have it, but you must find value. The goal is to build knowledge - just like the study author needs to find knowledge among flawed data, you must find knowledge among flawed studies…

> you need to think critically (and skeptically) to avoid assigning value to things that don't have it, but you must find value. This isn’t critical thinking. This is toxic positivity. It’s okay to admit that some studies don’t have value to add. If you don’t accept this, you’re going to be tricked by a lot of people trying to get your attention with bad data. Being able (and willing!) to filter out bad sources, even…

lol

> some studies

It's almost every study on HN, not some studies, which you'd understand if you read my comment.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#84

Post by mmooss »

Jensson wrote: post #56
mmooss wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical thinking and skepticism are good, but much of what happens on HN is not that. Thinking critically includes, most of all, finding value - you need to think critically (and skeptically) to avoid assigning value to things that don't have it, but you must find value. The goal is to build knowledge - just like the study author needs to find knowledge among flawed data, you must find knowledge among flawed studies…

> Focusing on the flaws and trying to shoot down everything is just craven recreation. No, its a valuable job to find flaws because its much easier to fix and work on known flaws than to stumble in the dark. Removing flaws and problems is one of the easiest ways to add value.

It's not valuable. People who do this at work are people who have no value to offer so they try to sound smart (and valuable) by finding flaws in someone else's work. All work is limited and flawed - it's easy to find them. Add the common hyperbolic statements on HN dismissing the entire study or whole fields of research, and it's misinformation.

The real significance is that things like sample size, to pick a common example here, is easy to understand in a theoretical way and so people apply it to the actual (not theoretical) practice of real research, which they don't understand the practicalities of, and also they overemphasize it because that's pretty much all they understand.

The first thing they look at in a paper is sample size - and hey, now sometimes they have something to 'contribute'! It's just reinforcing the same misunderstandings in others.

It sucks, a little, to have nothing to contribute, but it's a great opportunity to learn from people who do know.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#85

Post by mmooss »

lazyeye wrote: post #74
mmooss wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on your comment, the effect could be larger as well as smaller. All research is met on HN by people who know better and will tell you why it's flawed. There isn't a greater collection of expertise in the history of the world than on HN. Edit: I meant to add: What value can we find in this research? It wasn't published as scripture, the perfect answer to all our problems. It's one study of some interesting event…

Yes most responses on HN appear to fall into 2 broad categories:- 1. Why this blog post study is flawed and dumb 2. America is bad and shameful.

That's an interesting comparison, how people analyze and evaluate research and how they do the same with public affairs.

I would have said that the point of research is to find the value and build knowledge, while the point of discussing public affairs is to identify problems to fix.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure the latter can't find things that are constructive. But in either field, the exaggerated, dismissive comments/rants are not just a waste but damaging to progress.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#86

Post by rayiner »

Analemma_ wrote: post #29
rayiner wrote: post #6

Someone writes whether the data actually shows what it purports to show: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/01/09/filters-be... > The whole thing is driven by one data point and a linear trend which makes no theoretical sense in the context of the paper (from the abstract: “Air testing conducted inside schools during the leak (but before air filters were installed) showed no presence of natural gas pollutant…

The study itself is pretty explicit that it is just one encouraging case study which the authors believe merits follow-up research, rather than something conclusive. Matt Y's reporting isn't as forthcoming about this as it probably should've been, but he does also say the same thing at the end. He sort of buried the lede but didn't lie or anything.

I'm not accusing Matt Y. of lying. I like him and subscribe to his Substack. I'm just saying that the article illustrates the shortcoming of his approach to public policy. His data-driven approach to public policy is based on an overly optimistic view of reliability of the data.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#87

Post by rnjailamba »

rayiner wrote: post #6

Someone writes whether the data actually shows what it purports to show: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/01/09/filters-be... > The whole thing is driven by one data point and a linear trend which makes no theoretical sense in the context of the paper (from the abstract: “Air testing conducted inside schools during the leak (but before air filters were installed) showed no presence of natural gas pollutant…

Andrew Gelman: "No, I don’t think that this study offers good evidence that installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits." https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/01/09/no-i-dont-... (Adding this older link here for cross reference)

A thread on Gelman's article is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22006595.

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#89

Post by tehjoker »

xwolfi wrote: post #23
sheepscreek wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad made a similar observation, assuming the children were young. However, upon reviewing the article, I noticed it doesn’t explicitly mention the grade level. Considering younger children have weaker immune systems, this could potentially lead to fewer missed classes and improved grades. Personally, my first grader misses out on a considerable number of classes. However, if these results were observed in grades 3…

But then, what about being protected from sickness from a young age, to end up sick all the time as an adult ? You had a better education, we can agree, but your body got weaker as a result and now you can't be as productive as an adult. I exaggerate a bit, but I found that during covid, where the mask was mandatory in my place, I was never sick. The only few years in my life where I was actually healthy continuously…

getting sick is bad for us. we should clean the air. i’ve been wearing n95 indoors for years, 1 cold (neg for c19) in 5 years

Re: Installing air filters in classrooms has surprisingly large educational benefits (2020)

#90

Post by aitchnyu »

amluto wrote: post #79
aetherspawn wrote: post #58

I’m so confused why they installed HEPA filters to filter out LNG and methane. And HEPA filters don’t really scrub CO2 that effectively, even with a carbon membrane, so can we really expect lower CO2 levels? Considering this, what’s the actual takeaway here? Cleaner air (dust/virus free?) is better for productivity? I am asking because I want to buy the same filter for work, but I am doubtful that the $700 HEPA filte…

Having tried to dig into this a while ago, they installed carbon filters. Most of the stuff for sale as “carbon” filters has too little carbon to do much. You want quite a lot, and, for some gasses, you can get special impregnated carbon or other media.

Tangential, are there DIY methods of activated carbon? I got pellets, impregnated sheets and a packaged one for my air purifier, but I dont know when they are helping and when they are exhausted.
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