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Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

arcprize.org

81–90 of 103 posts

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason these tasks require fluid intelligence is because they were designed this way -- with task uniqueness/novelty as the primary goal. ARC 1 was released long before in-context learning was identified in LLMs (and designed before Transformer-based LLMs existed), so the fact that LLMs can't do ARC was never a design consideration. It just turned out this way, which confirmed our initial assumption.

Is there any other confirmation of the assumptions, other than the LLM behaviour, because that still feels like circular reasoning. I think a similar claim could be levelled against other benchmarks or LLM evaluation tasks. One could say that the Turing test was designed to assess human intelligence, and LLMs pass it, therefore LLMs have human intelligence. This is generally considered to be false now, because we can…

I'm not sure that's quite correct about the Turing test. From Wikipedia:

"Turing did not explicitly state that the Turing test could be used as a measure of "intelligence", or any other human quality. He wanted to provide a clear and understandable alternative to the word "think", which he could then use to reply to criticisms of the possibility of "thinking machines" and to suggest ways that research might move forward."

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#82

I spent half an hour playing with these now at https://arcprize.org/play and it's fun, but I must say that they are not "easy". So far I eventually solved all of the ones I've gone through, but several took me significantly more than the 2 tries allotted. I wonder if this can be shown to be a valid IQ test, and if so, what IQ would a person need to solve e.g. 90% of them in 1 or 2 tries.

I did the first 10 from ARC-AGI-2 (hard) set. 9 were in one try, 1 was in two.

To be fair I've spent a lot of time thinking about cellular automata and Conway's game of life, which definitely seems to be influencing the design of these puzzles.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#83
I don't know if this was a design goal, but I just did the first 10 Arc-AGI-2 public eval (hard) puzzles, and found them much more enjoyable (as a human) than any of the Arc-AGI-1 puzzles. That said the grid/puzzle editor is still a little clunky – would be nice to be able to drag-to-paint and have an adjustable brush size.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#84

I'd love to hear from the ARC guys: These benchmarks, and specifically the constraints placed on solving them (compute etc) seem to me to incentivize the opposite of "general intelligence" Have any of the technical contributions used to win the past competition been used to advance general AI in any way? We have transformer based systems constantly gaining capabilities. On the other hand have any of the Kaggle submis…

Not the team, just follow ARC on-and-off as a ML engineer. I think it will take a few years (at least) to see the impact of ARC, especially the more conceptual works. Those are more close to basic research than applied - It will take time before the lessons are transferred to applications (that also requires considerable R&D). But more importantly, current LLM-based systems and the in-the-spirit-of-ARC-systems have quite different goals. The ARC challenge is intended to measure and build system which can learn efficiently - that is, be able to solve a novel task with very little new data. Ref F. Chollet paper "On the Measure of Intelligence". Current LLMs do not care for learning efficiency at all - actually the strategy is completely opposite - they aim to utilize ss much data and compute as possible to make the most capable system (at least on task that are somehow spanned by the training data). Which works well, but is for sure quite costly and it might also limit applications to those that not require a lot of learning at runtime (we still do not know how far we can take in-context learning). ARC brings in a fresh perspective, but I expect it to take several years for the approaches to really start cross-pollinating.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#85
post #38
post #30

Maybe this is a really stupid question but I've been curious... are LLMs based on... "Neuronormativity"? Like, what neurology is an LLM based on? Would we get any benefit from looking at neurodiverse processing styles?

It’s kind of a silly question in that the neural architecture of neural nets is really only loosely inspired by neurology, and that basic vague neurology is shared by neurotypical people and neurodivergent people and animals and even bugs.

Also we barely understand how cognition works, AFAIK.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#86
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our belief is that once we can no longer come up with quantifiable problems that are "feasible for humans and hard for AI" then we effectively have AGI. I don’t think that follows. Just because people fail to create ARC-AGI problems that are difficult for an AI to solve, doesn’t mean that said AI can just be plugged into a humanoid robot and it will now reliably cook dinner, order a pizza and drive to pick it up, t…

The task you mention require intelligence but also a robot body with a lot of physical dexterity suited to a designed-for-humanoids world. That seems like an additional requirement on top of intelligence? Maybe we do not want an AGI definition to include that? There are humans who cannot perform these tasks, at least without assistive/adapted systems such as a wheelchair and accessible bus.

I read that has “humans can perform these task, at least with…”

Put the computer in a wheelchair of his choice and let him try to catch the bus. How would you compare program and human reasoning abilities, but disregarding human ability to interact with the outside world?

Edit: Arc-AGI itself is only approachable by visually and manually valid humans, others needs assistive devices.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#87
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our belief is that once we can no longer come up with quantifiable problems that are "feasible for humans and hard for AI" then we effectively have AGI. I don’t think that follows. Just because people fail to create ARC-AGI problems that are difficult for an AI to solve, doesn’t mean that said AI can just be plugged into a humanoid robot and it will now reliably cook dinner, order a pizza and drive to pick it up, t…

The task you mention require intelligence but also a robot body with a lot of physical dexterity suited to a designed-for-humanoids world. That seems like an additional requirement on top of intelligence? Maybe we do not want an AGI definition to include that? There are humans who cannot perform these tasks, at least without assistive/adapted systems such as a wheelchair and accessible bus.

> at least without assistive/adapted systems such as a wheelchair and accessible bus.

Which is precisely what the robotic body I mentioned would be.

You're talking about humans who have the mental capacity to do these things, but who don't control a body capable of doing them. That's the exact opposite of an AI that controls a body capable of doing these things, but lacks the mental capacity to do them.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people got discouraged, seeing how openai solved arc agi 1 by what seems like brute forcing and throwing money at it. Do you believe arc was solved in the "spirit" of the challenge? Also all the open sourced solutions seem super specific to solving arc. Is this really leading us to human level AI at open ended tasks?

Strong emphasis on "seems". I'd encourage you to review the definition of "brute force", and then consider the absolutely immense combinatoric space represented by the grids these puzzles use. "Brute force" simply cannot touch these puzzles. An amount of understanding and pattern recognition is strictly required, even with the large quantities of test-time compute that were used against arc-agi-1.

Also there's no clear way to verify the solution. There could be easily multiple rules which works on the same examples

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#89
post #2

Hey HN, Greg from ARC Prize Foundation here. Alongside Mike Knoop and François Francois Chollet, we’re launching ARC-AGI-2, a frontier AI benchmark that measures a model’s ability to generalize on tasks it hasn’t seen before, and the ARC Prize 2025 competition to beat it. In Dec ‘24, ARC-AGI-1 (2019) pinpointed the moment AI moved beyond pure memorization as seen by OpenAI's o3. ARC-AGI-2 targets test-time reasoning.…

Did I read this right that only 2 humans out of 400 solved the problems?

No, they're saying that the problems have been reviewed / play-tested by ≥2 humans, so they are not considered unfair or too ambiguous to solve in two attempts (a critique of some Arc-AGI-1 puzzles that o3 missed). They have a lot of puzzles so they were divided among some number of testers, but I don't think every tester had to try every problem.

Re: Arc-AGI-2 and ARC Prize 2025

#90
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your awesome work Greg! The success of o3 directly contradicts us being in an "idea-constrained environment", what makes you believe that?

Not Greg/team, so unrelated opinion. o3 solution for ARC v1 was incredibly expensive. Some good ideas are at least needed to take that cost down by a factor 100-10000x.

Yeah my analogy for that solution is like claiming to have solved sorting arrays by using enormous compute to try all possible orderings of arrays of length 100.

It's not a real solution because:

- It's way too expensive

- It doesn't scale the way a real solution does

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