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France rejects backdoor mandate

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Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#81

Post by whatshisface »

immibis wrote: post #71
whatshisface wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that France is actually willing to accept that every opposing intelligence agency will obtain the key...

I think they think when that happens they'll change it. Or they'll change it on a schedule... "Just use HTTPS" is good enough for every website and web app on the planet (including ones that handle more messages than the entire country of France) but not a state intelligence agency can't keep their TLS keys secret?

"Just use HTTPS" sends French messages directly to NSA, insofar as those platforms are concerned. In that case there's not even a copy of any encryption key...

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#82

Post by Cyph0n »

buybackoff wrote: post #77
mytailorisrich wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. On individual rights I would qualify that by saying that France has never been leading on them. The state is what matters and individual rights have always in practice been restricted to that effect.

I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, so I acted on it.

How can you say that when individuals are not allowed to show religious symbols or wear religious clothing in any government-affiliated setting?

I don’t see how state-enforced irreligiousness (secularism/laicite) doesn’t completely contradict with individual freedoms.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#83

Post by grvbck »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #76
whatshisface wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate. The impossible promise of backdoors that France can enter but no other country, organized criminal syndicate or petty government-employed stalker can find is only one impossible promise among the many we can hear fr…

> to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate That's relevant knowledge. It's not the relevant knowledge. Another piece of relevant knowledge is facts about complex things like political science, cryptography, etc. Since politicians actually need to decide and implement things, as a side gig to being popular, lack of the proper knowledge to do so is a shortcoming. > I would lik…

Here in Sweden the answer from the general public often is "yes, I am honest and have nothing to hide".

Unlike French media, Swedish media does not have a well-developed tradition of confronting those in power and/or demanding accountability.

I often get frustrated by how easily interviewees dodge direct questions by answering something completely different, and get a "thank you" from the journalist in return, instead of a follow-up question.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#85

Post by amelius »

palata wrote: post #3

Just like for other big challenges like biodiversity and climate change, it feels like it often boils down to the politicians just not understanding enough to take rational decisions. Of course they can't all have a PhD in cryptography, but they should also not have no clue at all. Over an over again, politicians are asking for backdoors. To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryptio…

> To me it just proves that they don't understand the very basic of how encryption works.

Even if you don't have the encryption keys you can read messages by breaking into a phone and taking screenshots, for example.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#86

Post by sadeshmukh »

jbm wrote: post #30
aucisson_masque wrote: post #26

The backdoor mandate was part of an anti organized criminality law, Bruno Retailleau (interior minister) pretend criminals use encrypted chat to communicate and so backdoor is required to intercept their communications. makes sense to the average non tech people. The sad truth however is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications: there are open source softwar…

While I generally agree with your position, this is the same unconvincing argument I've read for a long time. Even if there is a specific criminal gang that is sophisticated enough to use a properly encoded open source application, the majority aren't, and there is enough of a overhead and annoyance factor that will allow the majority not to use them. If any open source application gets enough people using it, there…

I would argue that organized crime benefits from economies of scale - and that's what they're saying this might somehow alleviate. It's really not that hard to find one OSS e2ee app that is only updated for severe security issues when you have millions flowing through.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#87

Post by whatshisface »

grvbck wrote: post #83
nonrandomstring wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate That's relevant knowledge. It's not the relevant knowledge. Another piece of relevant knowledge is facts about complex things like political science, cryptography, etc. Since politicians actually need to decide and implement things, as a side gig to being popular, lack of the proper knowledge to do so is a shortcoming. > I would lik…

Here in Sweden the answer from the general public often is "yes, I am honest and have nothing to hide". Unlike French media, Swedish media does not have a well-developed tradition of confronting those in power and/or demanding accountability. I often get frustrated by how easily interviewees dodge direct questions by answering something completely different, and get a "thank you" from the journalist in return, instea…

That sounds like the US in the postwar era, under Eisenhower. It broke down quickly, as the journalists were not slow to catch on when the leaders abused that trust.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#88

Post by tshaddox »

whatshisface wrote: post #65
tshaddox wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a coherent set of values that lead to saying "no encryption", but not one for "only backdoored encryption". While I oppose building backdoors, I don't really agree with this claim. There's nothing incoherent about developing a threat model.

I think some threat models, like one that doesn't include hackers, are not coherent relative to reality.

A threat model can include hackers while not taking every action that could prevent every conceivable attack from a hacker.

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#89

Post by _ache_ »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #69
aucisson_masque wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. I'm french, i have not heard any people, work, street, even television or internet speak about that. The sad truth is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications. there are open source software that can't be tampered with, software that doesn't use a single server where backdoor can be…

> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes. What about using the probability that a specific race or religion will commit crimes then target those people with aggressive tactics. As for the public they could make those people feel unwelcomed through constant harassment in the hopes they leave the country. Thus reducing the crime rate by any means. ---- I checked the murder rate and i…

> I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?

That is a known fact. Criminality rate drops but french people are feeling more and more insecure.

There is a media oligarchy in France (by billionaires) that pushes anything but left ideas (the left want an exit tax and a wealth tax, the last one is the Zucman tax). The idea that immigrants are criminals is easy to spread as the prison population is clearly different than the mean population of France (for various reasons). They are pushing it so hard that the population is feeling insecure even if the criminality rate drops.

Source about media oligarchy by billionaires: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%...

Re: France rejects backdoor mandate

#90

Post by buybackoff »

Cyph0n wrote: post #82
buybackoff wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit ambiguity, but I meant 180 opposite. I believe France is and has been the top at individual freedom. That perception is an important reason I'm there, so I acted on it.

How can you say that when individuals are not allowed to show religious symbols or wear religious clothing in any government-affiliated setting? I don’t see how state-enforced irreligiousness (secularism/laicite) doesn’t completely contradict with individual freedoms.

Cela s'appelle la laïcité.

If you have problems with that there are so many 3rd world countries that care about medieval stuff more than development. I think laïcité is one of the coolest words/concept, France should only really enforce it further.

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