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Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

blog.ecosia.org

81–90 of 227 posts

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on where in the world you are, paying yourself a high wage results in much higher taxes than paying profits in the form of dividends. These taxes may benefit society at large, which may well be in line with their goals.

Oh but you can pay expenses to a "consulting company" that your wife/brother/daughter/... owns which will keep their profits and pay off dividents

Yes, you can, but that's not legal.

If you want to compare the merits of two systems, you have to do it on legal grounds. If you allow cheating, then nothing is comparable, everything is possible, no system is better.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#82
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay for search and email? What services do you use? May I ask you why, if you're wanting to go into it?

In my case it's Kagi and Fastmail. Fastmail primarily because I don't want to support Google and Kagi because it's genuinely better than the alternatives.

Same here. Both products are actually better than the ad-supported versions. Fastmail masked-addresses are great.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#83
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the only difference I noticed was that it was faster. I still use Maps and have my Google account, but I don't use Gmail (or Google calendar). I made the transition years ago and it was really painless for me.

Transitioning from Gmail was painless? What approach did you take? I think I would have hundreds, if not thousands of services I would need to change email on.

Oh, sorry, I have my own domain so I just changed my DNS, imported my messages to Fastmail and that was it.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#84
post #8

I'm sure Ecosia are a good company, but headlines like this always make me a little suspicious. Non profits make a lot of money for their founders without it ever being "profit". Ecosia are reporting just over 600K euros a month in wages, I'd love to see the split and what % of that goes to the CEO. You don't need to sell a business if you have plenty of income from it every month - especially if now that can't be ta…

I don't have any special information here, but I wanted to mention that's it's just as exhausting when people approach every single interaction assuming the worst possible intentions as the reverse. It's OK to not be cynical once in a while.

Yeah seriously.

"Oh no the entire company has wages - let's assume it's exploitation"

Is basic divisive language that just perpetuates the "world is bad and there is no lesser evil" bs that drives current news fatigue imo.

People are sure that 1 < 100000 but Google Vs ecosia is somehow more muddy.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#85
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because ad revenue can be used for the non-profit? Ecosia's whole thing is that when you use it, you indirectly help plant trees - "the search engine that plants trees".

Do they disclose what percentage of their revenue is donated? If it's just a token amount, then I'd rather not support a marketing gimmick and would prefer to just donate directly to an organization focused on trees. If it's a significant amount, then it seems unlikely that they'll be able to compete with for-profit alternatives that can focus on developing the best product.

So by your definition it should not exist, but it does and they donate non negligible amounts.

So where is your fault?

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#86
post #59

Trees don't need planting. Trees need a safe place to grow without saplings getting destroyed. But trees absolutely don't need planting. Besides, a healthy forest has to go through pioneering stages first.

I think there is a lot of truth in this, but presented in a way that misses some nuance.

It's true that if your goal is to regenerate native forest, which it generally[+] should be where that's an option, then it's indeed true that you want to allow existing forest to regenerate as naturally as possible. The problem in these cases is either land use (land is used for forestry / agriculture / etc. so there's nowhere for new trees to grow) or over-grazing (either by livestock such as sheep or by high populations of wild herbivores such as deer). In those cases you need to solve the underlying problems rather than just counting the number of saplings in the ground (in a heavily browsed area planting may have the advantage that you tend to put in tree guards. Ideally one could instead install appropriate fencing around the entire area to reduce herbivore numbers below the problematic levels).

However you aren't always in that scenario. For example if you're in a landscape with few seed sources then natural regeneration might take an implausibly long time. An extreme example of that would be "regreen the desert" type projects where you need to bootstrap the conditions for tree growth by putting in a lot of trees in a short space of time, although those have a high failure rate. You might also be worried that natural regeneration is too slow in the face of changing climatic conditions, and want to plant trees right for the anticipated climate 100 years hence (although that itself is likely to be controversial).

And of course frequently in the real world tree-planting projects have goals totally unrelated to climate change e.g. just forestry, and as such one shouldn't expect those things to be especially good for the climate, or at all good for biodiversity.

Anyway, I like the idea of companies dedicating part of their revenue to tackling severe global problems like climate change. But I tend to agree that Ecosia's continued focus on tree planting as their headline activity makes them look a bit naive to the audience that is likely to be most receptive to changing products specifically for environmental reasons. Hopefully some of the other project types they're moving into look better in the details than just tree planting.

[+] But not always of course. Converting peat bog to woodland, for example, is going to reduce its effectiveness as a carbon store, and likely reduce biodiversity as well.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#87
post #8

I'm sure Ecosia are a good company, but headlines like this always make me a little suspicious. Non profits make a lot of money for their founders without it ever being "profit". Ecosia are reporting just over 600K euros a month in wages, I'd love to see the split and what % of that goes to the CEO. You don't need to sell a business if you have plenty of income from it every month - especially if now that can't be ta…

I'm not sure how much that's creating outsized income for the founder... There are between 98 (2022 annual report number) and 120 (ZoomInfo) and 133 (LinkedIn number). German filings are notoriously opaque vs Europe or UK. So that's 637k EUR / 120 employees (although the payroll number jumps around between 450 and ~640 - weird, but who knows, # of employees shifting around or some paid quarterly or on commission?). T…

> the payroll number jumps around between 450 and ~640 - weird, but who knows

Where did you get that data from? The difference might be due to headcount vs. FTE and/or including vs. excluding freelancers.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#88
post #8

I'm sure Ecosia are a good company, but headlines like this always make me a little suspicious. Non profits make a lot of money for their founders without it ever being "profit". Ecosia are reporting just over 600K euros a month in wages, I'd love to see the split and what % of that goes to the CEO. You don't need to sell a business if you have plenty of income from it every month - especially if now that can't be ta…

I don't have any special information here, but I wanted to mention that's it's just as exhausting when people approach every single interaction assuming the worst possible intentions as the reverse. It's OK to not be cynical once in a while.

You're right. I don't necessarily assume the worst from them and I don't assume the worst in general, but it's difficult to switch off from the fact that this article is marketing, and it's marketing for a company that the author makes money from.

Listening to cool ideas like this is nice, but a little skepticism when sharing marketing is, I think, valid.

Re: Trees not profits: we're giving up our right to ever sell Ecosia (2018)

#90
post #3

I really like the idea of Ecosia and Steward Owned companies, but as somebody who wants out of the Ad game completely, uses uBlock Origin religiously and pays for services like email and search. I haven't actually used Ecosia, but am interested in others experiences with it. But I imagine in the HN crowd a lot of other people fit the same profile as myself.

Not OP, but just checking in as a another happy Kagi + Fastmail user here!
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