This came up the other day and it became clear that many people, even on HN, don't realize that in the late 90's it was pretty common for non-tech people to have their own websites. There were many places where you could do this for free, and it was extremely easy to spin up a simple one. The actual content being shared - text and images - isn't really different from the majority of the content that's still being sha…
GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
81–89 of 89 posts
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#82Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you think of technical and nontechnical as a spectrum, the types of nontechnical people in 1999 that were online were miles ahead of today's nontechnicals. And there was only so much to learn, too, at least as far as web development went-- not like geocities was gonna let you hook up to a SQL database. Today I think those types of nontechnical people are pursuing far more lucrative niches in product management, de…
Those people would have been more tuned in, since it was the early days of the Web. But in terms of technical skills? Throwing up a very simple Geocities page was about as much effort as starting a blog on Blogger. Easier than fiddling around with Wordpress most of the time. It was likely a lot easier for most people than having to figure out how to do something in DOS (which was also pretty common at the time).
Back then even throwing up a colored background and marquee text was sorta thrilling. I remember people put so much effort even to basic shit like their AOL profiles back in 1999 and that sorta bled into the personal website scene. But really for me I think it was tools like html and geocities that enabled this.
But where is that today? Python beginner webdev stuff? Can you really get into that feedback loop by messing around with flask and elixir? I guess it must work for some people but I look out at the web today and most of what I see is SEO garbage. Definitely not 100 flowers blooming, but one ugly google-kudzu blanketing the entire thing.
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#84This came up the other day and it became clear that many people, even on HN, don't realize that in the late 90's it was pretty common for non-tech people to have their own websites. There were many places where you could do this for free, and it was extremely easy to spin up a simple one. The actual content being shared - text and images - isn't really different from the majority of the content that's still being sha…
I absolutely abhor this idea that there are "tech people" and "non tech people". It's complete defeatest bullshit. When I was 12 years old setting up a website in 1997 I was not a "tech person", I was someone curious and motivated enough to learn a very simple skill (html). There's nothing special about me. We don't talk about "bread people" and "non bread people," we just talk about people who decide to learn to mak…
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#85https://neocities.org/ Geocities inspired site available today.
Nowadays this type of static site is insanely cheap to host. Put a CDN like CloudFlare (which it seems they are using) in front of this type of site and you could scale to millions of hits basically for free.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13445618
> With this launch, and our recently deployed 11-datacenter global anycast caching CDN, Neocities becomes a world-class web hosting service, proving you can still make building a web site fun and easy without sacrificing performance, and without being forced to figure out how to use esoteric, expensive cloud services.
https://blog.neocities.org/blog/2017/03/26/huge-space-increa...
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#86Funny thing is Tripod, Angelfire, and 50megs are all still around, just no one bothers with them anymore.
I was exploring Angelfire a few years ago to see who still used it and was surprised by the number of Navajo/Dine. I learned more about bingo and reservation culture, language, and society over that few days than I had in my entire life. Vastly enhanced my understanding of Letterkenny.
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the types of nontechnical people in 1999 that were online were miles ahead of today's nontechnicals. I don't know. There are kids making games in Roblox now, editing movies and doing all kinds of things, but Hacker News would still consider them "nontechnical" because they have social media accounts.
Today I explained to a sales engineer working at a Fortune 500 company how to open an Incognito window in Google Chrome. Maybe the inflection point was the transition between Windows XP and Windows Vista. In XP, the default behavior was to show file extentions in Windows file explorer. In subsequent Windown releases, file extentions for known file types were hidden by default. This led to future generations being les…
https://www.brainbell.com/tutors/A+/Hardware/Managing_Files_...
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you for the interesting bits of history. I never knew about the planned phase 2, or the other attempts for a more distributed web. I suspect the reasons why it never caught on were much simpler. Most of the early adopters were very enthusiastic, wanted to contribute, and there were many niches where one could contribute something new. Then there is the whole issue of design, which makes publishing on the web a…
> Then there is the whole issue of design, which makes publishing on the web a relatively high effort proposition. Sure, but early web pages were quite rudimentary. A simple tool that allowed adding links and images would have been enough to start with. Later when scripting and styling were standardized, it could've evolved to support those features as well. WYSIWYG HTML editors did this relatively well, but they nev…
I'm still not convinced that would have helped maintain a decentralized web. For one thing, such tools existed very early on. I seem to recall WYSIWYG HTML editors with integrated FTP support being common. Many ISPs also included web hosting, which would have taken care of the web server and DNS part. While such a setup wasn't decentralized, it was certainly less centralized than the web today. I simply think the number of people who are interested in typing more than a paragraph or two at a time is quite limited. In that case, the effort is minimal and the tools required to support it can be quite simple (e.g. there is very little need to deal with formatting, creating links to other pages, etc.).
> Imagine if instead of using a web browser, consuming web content consisted of a command-line tool to download files from a server, and then opening them up separately in other tools to view them.
That pretty much reminds me of Gopher. And you're right. Just look at how quickly the web took over.
>> Hosting has always been easy to find, but it is harder to find something stable across time. > Sure, but I think those problems would've been solved over time. We see them as difficult today because we always relied on large companies to solve them for us.
In a sense, you're right. Self-hosting wasn't an option for many people in the early days since they had ephemeral dial-up connections. So you had to rely upon someone else, which meant that there was a good chance you would have to "move" (e.g. changing ISPs in the ISP provided web hosting, or simply changing web hosting providers). Aside from reliability, security, dynamic IPs, and cranky ISPs, there are no barriers to self-hosting today. Most of those can be overcome with existing software. I simply don't think there is much demand for such software these days, which is why it is uncommon.
> But maybe all of this is wishful thinking by a jaded mind. :)
There is nothing wrong with hopeful thinking. Your suggestions are even valuable in the current context since there are people who are interested in building and hosting webpages in a decentralized manner. While a simple tool would revolutionize the lives for those people, I'm going to stick by my doubts about it revolutionizing the web.
Re: GeoCities in 1995: Building a Home Page on the Internet
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Then there is the whole issue of design, which makes publishing on the web a relatively high effort proposition. Sure, but early web pages were quite rudimentary. A simple tool that allowed adding links and images would have been enough to start with. Later when scripting and styling were standardized, it could've evolved to support those features as well. WYSIWYG HTML editors did this relatively well, but they nev…
> Sure, but early web pages were quite rudimentary. A simple tool that allowed adding links and images would have been enough to start with. I'm still not convinced that would have helped maintain a decentralized web. For one thing, such tools existed very early on. I seem to recall WYSIWYG HTML editors with integrated FTP support being common. Many ISPs also included web hosting, which would have taken care of the w…
HTML editors with FTP support were quite common, yes. As well as free hosting, though my memory is spotty regarding how user friendly ISP hosting was specifically. I came online in the late 90s, so I missed this early era, and I don't remember my ISP offering this service.
Regardless, these services and software came after the functionality of the web was already established (Prodigy, 1994; Geocities, 1994; FrontPage, 1995; Dreamweaver, 1997). They were essentially a response to a demand for features the web didn't natively have. By that point Mosaic was the most popular browser, and Netscape and IE were starting to dominate. The idea that the web was a read-only medium meant for consumption had already gained momentum. Even back then relatively few people bothered to figure out how to build their own site. Many non-technical people did, and these services and software did help, but by and large most users were consumers.
> I simply think the number of people who are interested in typing more than a paragraph or two at a time is quite limited.
The current state of the web negates this opinion. Most people do indeed want to share their thoughts and ideas. Social media platforms were created essentially to enable everyone to communicate, to publish and discover content, regardless of their technical knowledge. A _ton_ of content is created by non-technical users, which now vastly dominates the content available on the web. Think only of the millions of hours of video uploaded to YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, etc.
So it's not that people aren't interested in creating content, but that the only places they can easily do so is on platforms created and maintained by large companies.
I'm not saying that we might not have needed centralized services of this kind even if we had native web publishing from the start. But imagine if the software used to access the web had the same simple UI as Twitter or Facebook, but instead of being a centralized service, it was available locally directly in the browser (or "publisher", or however we would've called it). That would've certainly reduced the friction to contribute, lowering the need for 3rd party services and software to be created for filling that void, and the web would've evolved much differently.
Perhaps we would've invented P2P protocols like BitTorrent much earlier, to address the need of sharing large volumes of data. Perhaps the demand for higher connection speeds would've accelerated the migration to broadband. Who knows, and we can only speculate at this point.
> Aside from reliability, security, dynamic IPs, and cranky ISPs, there are no barriers to self-hosting today.
I disagree. It's still largely a task for technical users. A non-technical person would still struggle to setup their own web server that serves their own content, despite how ubiquitous cloud hosting providers are, and how user friendly web servers have become (Caddy et al.). Doing that on their home networks is even more challenging, because of the issues you mentioned. User friendly web serving software and network infrastructure is uncommon precisely because there's no demand for it, because the problem is solved by large companies. It's a chicken and egg scenario.
> While a simple tool would revolutionize the lives for those people, I'm going to stick by my doubts about it revolutionizing the web.
Yeah, I don't think there's a chance anything will change now. That ship has already sailed. The decentralized movement is much larger today than it's ever been, yet decentralized services are only used by a very niche group of internet users. I don't think that architecture will ever replace the existing web. I just wish we would've enabled and educated users from the start that the web is a collaborative medium, not one controlled by corporate interest. At least I think that was TBL's vision, which he's now trying to realize with Solid. I wish them and projects like it the best of luck, but I think it's too little and too late to undo the mistake.
Cheers for the discussion! :)