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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#81

Post by llm_trw »

throwup238 wrote: post #20
softwaredoug wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

It’s even more stark the further back you go. When the printing press was invented, it didn’t usher in a new era of creativity but instead the first few centuries resembled modern Hollywood: shameless sequels and reboots. By far the most popular books were translations of Greek classics and rote derivatives of the Arthurian legends. It wasn’t until the first iterations of copyright and a few other cultural shifts tha…

That's the third major use of the printing press.

The first was for catholic indulgences.

The second was for religious propaganda during the European wars of religion.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#82

Post by zabzonk »

keepamovin wrote: post #67

I'm convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The e…

i just got downvoted for saying elsewhere that this "needs an /s" - but this either does, or you need some help.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#83

Post by llm_trw »

defrost wrote: post #40
jhbadger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but the references in Star Wars to spice (spice mines of Kessel in the original, a reference to striking spice miners in Attack of the Clones) is pretty much only from Dune. Unless they were mining oregano or something.

The Dutch East Indies was literally "mining" spice ( cinnamon, cassia, cardamom, ginger, pepper, nutmeg, star anise, clove, and turmeric ) from SE Asia for European consumption and packing ship with gold bullion in exchange. There were many actual "spice wars" fought in the region to wipe out competing crops, to build alliances, and later betray those local allies, etc.

The wildest thing about European colonialism is that it was kicked off to get more spices for European food. Then in the worlds most bizarre twist European food gave up all spices a few centuries later and colonies had to invent something else to sell back to the colonial centre.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#84

Post by RobRivera »

softwaredoug wrote: post #3
alabastervlog wrote: post #2

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

What's ironic is how people often point to plot points in many franchises (Star Wars, GoT, etc) as being derivative of Dune... Yet Dune itself is fairly derivative of other works

It's derivation all the way down.

That's what renewed my passion for reading; revisiting texts with contexts in mind, history, intent, etc.

I feel the education system really fails people with these little bits

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#85

Post by pjmorris »

inopinatus wrote: post #43
alabastervlog wrote: post #2

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

The discrepancy is easy to explain; Frank Herbert never owned a copy of Seven Pillars but was instead inspired by a manuscript of desert adventures that he’d found on a train as a boy whilst holidaying in the UK.

Clever.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#86

Post by lynx97 »

softwaredoug wrote: post #10

There’s even a part at the beginning of Lawrence of Arabia film where he puts out a match with his fingers, and throughout, Lawrence proves his ability to overcome pain. Very reminiscent of the Gom Jabar.

Wait, is putting out a match with your fingers a superpower these days? I can do that very easily, and it barely hits a 2 on the 0-10 pain-scale.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#87

Post by npodbielski »

tsimionescu wrote: post #57
ViktorRay wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Fac... A tale as old as time

This has relatively little relevance to Dune, which is basically the story of how the worse dictator in history rose to power (only to be surpassed by his son's 1200 year reign of tyranny).

Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much? My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence.

My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew.

My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice.

Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#88

Post by pjmorris »

bookofjoe wrote: post #33

I saw "Lawrence of Arabia" at the Riverside Theatre on Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee in 70mm in the summer of 1962, the year it was released. I was overwhelmed ("blown away" as a term of art didn't exist back then but would be an apt description). I was SO thrilled when, after nearly two hours, the screen said "There will now be an intermission." Never heard of such a thing back then for a movie! I note that the film…

A friend raving about it got me to go see the 1989 reissue, and I was similarly overwhelmed/blown-away. The intermission only added to the sense of it being an event.

Last year, I dragged friends of mine to see it in the theater. They, too, were amazed. Now, we've been reading up on those times.

The reading list, so far:

'Lawrence in Arabia: War, Deceit, Imperial Folly and the Making of the Modern Middle East', Soctt Anderson

'Seven Pillars of Wisdom', T.E. Lawrence

'A Peace to End All Peace', David Fromkin

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#90

Post by Havoc »

zabzonk wrote: post #82
keepamovin wrote: post #67

I'm convinced Herbert had some deep knowledge of psi phenomena. His descriptions of truthsayers reading people, timelines, race consciousness, and prescience are very similar to real experiences. His emphasis that it emerges through a combination of genetics and training of subtle awareness, plus the suggestion compounds could provide access to a state that could be sustained without them - also ring very true. The e…

i just got downvoted for saying elsewhere that this "needs an /s" - but this either does, or you need some help.

> you need some help

That seems a bit strong given all the wild stuff believe in a religious context.

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