Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

swedenherald.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 283 posts

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#81

Post by marcinzm »

vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

> Invading the privacy of one's digital space is a violation that goes as deep as reading someone's diary when we look back and the time when life was more analog.

Which police with a warrant can very much do.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#82

Post by Thorrez »

hav wrote: post #64
diggan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That specific quote is in the original comment of this thread :)

Yes, but your deduction is incorrect. They're saying the SAF are negative _and_ they recommend their personell to use the service, not that they are negative _because_ they recommend it.

I don't see how you can know that "because" is incorrect. This seems like it could be possible to me:

(Possibly) SAF is negative because they use Signal, and don't want a law that would introduce vulnerabilities into Signal that could be utilized by third parties.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#83

Post by nickslaughter02 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #8

It seems like a lot of these proposals are coming out of Europe—assuming I’m not mistaken (and I may well be), why is Europe cracking down so much on privacy?

It's becoming clear that EU politicians are far too easy to manipulate by companies with products to sell.

> Since the revelation of ‘Chatcontrol-Gate,’ we know that the EU’s chat control proposal is ultimately a product of lobbying by an international surveillance-industrial complex. To ensure this never happens again, the surveillance lobbying swamp must be drained.”

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43171861

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#84

Post by louwrentius »

vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

It may be wrong, but it proves that technology can't beat politics and policy.

The issue with Apple caving to UK demands regarding encryption, and now Signal being in a similar situation, shows that you can't just focus on technology and ignore policy and politics.

And you'll find out that a ton of people here on HN will care, but most of the public won't.

People should take XKCD 538 really to heart (The 5$ wrench one). It's not the same point, but very similar. https://xkcd.com/538/

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#85

Post by brookst »

diggan wrote: post #53
pr337h4m wrote: post #41

Signal is headquartered in the US and presumably has no employees in Sweden (and perhaps the entire European Union). There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship. Preemptive surrender is extremely disappointing, especially for a non-profit - there isn’t even any revenue that can be ‘fined’ by the EU!

I keep seeing this idea that because a company is headquartered in some place, means they don't have to follow the laws of the countries where they operate. Yes, Signal may be headquartered in the US, but that doesn't mean they can just ignore the laws of other countries, which is exactly what may happen here, depending on the outcome. Sweden may propose a backdoor (a utterly shitty idea, I agree) which Signal may de…

Not familiar with Swedish law, but in most of the world the courts have a concept of jurisdiction. Otherwise a small country could just fine Apple $1T and solve its budget woes, and probably build a giant waterslide.

I would be surprised if Swedish law allowed for prosecuting a foreign company with not one bit of operations in the country.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#86

Post by ibotty »

dijit wrote: post #76
tuukkah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also only possible because we use Signal as compiled by themselves and not by trusted third parties from a source kept clean of any future client-side backdoors. The client is open source, right? https://github.com/signalapp (Reproducible builds is a cool technique.)

I have unpopular opinions about this, because Signal has been so hostile to anyone other than Signal themselves being involved. But to be specific: "open source" claims go out the window when they're; 1. Not reproducible (before anyone links me to the "reproducible steps" please actually read them because they tell you directly that they will not create a reproducible output). 2. Able to hide development of mobilecoi…

Can you point out where it says it won't be a reproducible output?

https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/main/reprod...

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#88

Post by Schiendelman »

jasonlotito wrote: post #40
Schiendelman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else could they have done?

> Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes I don't know... what else could Apple have done? Hard to determine what else they could have done besides turn off the feature in a thread on another company not just turning off a feature, but leaving a country entirely.

Who would make that decision? What would happen next after they did?

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#89

Post by frontalier »

Schiendelman wrote: post #32
BoredPositron wrote: post #13

While I don't personally agree with the law, I genuinely hope we witness a major corporation withdraw from a market just so we can finally observe the concrete impact of these types of threats. (Even though their position is understandable in this particular case.)

Have you ever read the book The Corporation? It goes into some detail about why corporations can't do that. Not "won't" - can't.

i did not read the book but i did read the news when google gave up on serving censored search results in china

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#90

Post by im3w1l »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #8

It seems like a lot of these proposals are coming out of Europe—assuming I’m not mistaken (and I may well be), why is Europe cracking down so much on privacy?

I can not speak for Europe generally but Sweden has very serious problems with gang wars the last couple years, and people are really tired of them shooting each other and setting off explosives. That's the reason for this particular proposal (and many other questionable expansions of police power too).
Post reply on HN