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Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

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Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#81

Post by tim333 »

In contrast to the failed Nikola approach there's a small Aussie company that seems to be doing quite well with electric truck conversions. Rather than build in batteries like in cars they swap packs using a forklift -

vid https://youtu.be/9eYLtPSf7PY?t=145

Seems quite a good idea to me - it's a different market to cars where no one wants to muck around with forklifts, whereas with trucks they use forklifts to load stuff anyway and people don't especially want to have to plug it in for hours to recharge.

Also you can charge the batteries while not installed using things like solar, whereas with built in batteries like on the Tesla semi you need a lot of grid power to supercharge.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#82

Post by rfwhyte »

tim333 wrote: post #81

In contrast to the failed Nikola approach there's a small Aussie company that seems to be doing quite well with electric truck conversions. Rather than build in batteries like in cars they swap packs using a forklift - vid https://youtu.be/9eYLtPSf7PY?t=145 Seems quite a good idea to me - it's a different market to cars where no one wants to muck around with forklifts, whereas with trucks they use forklifts to load s…

There's also a small Canadian company called Edison Motors that's doing some very interesting work in developing hybrid diesel-electric logging and back-country hauling trucks. They've taken a far saner approach to growth (Ie. not the typical SV hyperscalling model) and are actually building trucks that solve real world problems and I am personally a huge fan of them. They might not have the glitz or funding of your typical "Startup" but they are actually building a sustainable business that has a very good chance thriving for decades to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an6e2Lh9u58

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#83

Post by wstrange »

sofixa wrote: post #79
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could upvote this twice. I grow so tired of people simping for hydrogen when batteries just win in every metric aside from the initial build cost, which when amortized over the life of the battery, will beat out hydrogen. On top of the storage problems, and the problems of the energy needed to create the hydrogen, you then have to have a massive hydrogen distribution network that's on par with the current ga…

> I grow so tired of people simping for hydrogen when batteries just win in every metric aside from the initial build cost, which when amortized over the life of the battery, will beat out hydrogen Batteries suck in energy density and weight and in some cases, that really matters. Battery electric planes are not even close to being feasible other than for very small in size and range planes. Hydrogen is at least feas…

Bio-Fuel seems more practical.

It reuses all the existing infrastructure and requires no engine modifications.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#84

Post by sofixa »

wstrange wrote: post #83
sofixa wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I grow so tired of people simping for hydrogen when batteries just win in every metric aside from the initial build cost, which when amortized over the life of the battery, will beat out hydrogen Batteries suck in energy density and weight and in some cases, that really matters. Battery electric planes are not even close to being feasible other than for very small in size and range planes. Hydrogen is at least feas…

Bio-Fuel seems more practical. It reuses all the existing infrastructure and requires no engine modifications.

No. It's practically impossible to scale them to the required level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADpsUhdIO4w a video by a pilot on SAF and why it just won't cut it.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#85

Post by ricardobeat »

hot_gril wrote: post #30
bayesianbot wrote: post #6

I always wondered how it kept some value for a long time after the Hindenburg Research report[1]. To me, the report (and the CEO's empty response to it) made it clear there was pretty much no value in it, but the stock only lost 50% in the following week. [1] https://hindenburgresearch.com/nikola/

People also bought Fisker cars again, even knowing that the company produced defective cars before going bankrupt last time (which they did again this time).

The reborn Fisker only inherited the brand name, everything from design to manufacturing was entirely new. In hindsight maybe they brought the curse onto themselves...

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#86

Post by hot_gril »

ricardobeat wrote: post #85
hot_gril wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also bought Fisker cars again, even knowing that the company produced defective cars before going bankrupt last time (which they did again this time).

The reborn Fisker only inherited the brand name, everything from design to manufacturing was entirely new. In hindsight maybe they brought the curse onto themselves...

It was also the same founder. But the name does matter, since it's their reputation.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#87

Post by cellis »

cheema33 wrote: post #67
dawnerd wrote: post #42

There’s quite a few driving around SoCal, mostly by WattEV for testing. Figured they were selling enough to keep going but guess not.

> Figured they were selling enough to keep going but guess not. They were buying their vehicles from Iveco in Europe. Putting their name on them and selling them at a loss here in the US. Making money by selling vehicles was never the goal with this company. Defrauding foolish investors was the primary money maker.

“The stock is the product!”

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#88

Post by pstuart »

GJim wrote: post #20
pstuart wrote: post #3

Hydrogen has its place in our energy economy but its got too many issues to be used to power vehicles. Batteries have won, and synthesized hydrocarbons will be the alternative for where batteries won't work (i.e., most commercial air travel). That said, it's a pity to see this failure.

> Hydrogen has its place in our energy economy It certainly does not! (At least, not in any meaningful sense). A) How do you store it? Hydrogen does not compress to a liquid (except a cryogenic temperatures), meaning storage requires bulky, heavy and dangerous high pressure storage..... or cryo kit. B) Where do you get the hydrogen from? Electrolysis of water gives less hydrogen energy out than electrical energy you…

>> Hydrogen has its place in our energy economy

> It certainly does not! (At least, not in any meaningful sense).

I was speaking to the use of hydrogen for ammonia production. When we experience grid imbalances from when there's too much solar or wind energy for the grid to absorb it would be nice to put it to use in that regard rather than dumping it.

I understand and do not contest the problems that working with hydrogen creates, it makes a lousy option for a battery.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#89

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

sofixa wrote: post #79
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could upvote this twice. I grow so tired of people simping for hydrogen when batteries just win in every metric aside from the initial build cost, which when amortized over the life of the battery, will beat out hydrogen. On top of the storage problems, and the problems of the energy needed to create the hydrogen, you then have to have a massive hydrogen distribution network that's on par with the current ga…

> I grow so tired of people simping for hydrogen when batteries just win in every metric aside from the initial build cost, which when amortized over the life of the battery, will beat out hydrogen Batteries suck in energy density and weight and in some cases, that really matters. Battery electric planes are not even close to being feasible other than for very small in size and range planes. Hydrogen is at least feas…

I challenge the assertion that hydrogen is feasible.

Is hydrogen more energy dense (in either energy per unit volume OR per unit weight) than traditional fuels?

It might be better than batteries, but I'd be surprised if it was any better than current fuels.

Re: Troubled electric truck maker Nikola files for bankruptcy

#90

Post by ggreer »

dismalaf wrote: post #76
ggreer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The efficiency of using electricity to split water, then compressing and transporting the hydrogen, then using that hydrogen in a fuel cell to power an electric motor, is much worse than using electricity to charge a battery to power an electric motor. Also electricity is available almost everywhere. Hydrogen is only available at a few specialized fueling stations.

Electrolysis is actually around 80% efficient. The main issue is infrastructure, you're right about that. But the comment I initially responded to said there's energy loss as though that's not the case with literally every type of energy storage.

Splitting water is only one step in getting electricity to move a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle's wheels. Compressing hydrogen is around 90% efficient. Fuel cells in vehicles are around 60% efficient at converting hydrogen and oxygen to electricity. And motors are around 90% efficient. Assuming zero energy costs to transport the hydrogen to fueling stations, your "well to wheel" efficiency is 35-40%. In practice it's around 30%. For battery electric vehicles, efficiency is around 60%.

And then there are the safety and performance issues. You need new infrastructure to store and transport hydrogen. You need special sensors to detect hydrogen leaks, as any odorant will damage fuel cells. Due to ideal gas law, refueling cools the nozzle. With a high duty cycle, the nozzle can freeze to the vehicle even in southern California. Most climates will need heating elements on the nozzle and/or vehicle to deal with this. Different fueling stations have different pressures, meaning that a 5,000psi fueling station can only fill a 10,000psi tank to 50% capacity. Fueling stations leak hydrogen, so they can't be in convenient locations like parking garages or homes.

Given these issues, I think for applications where batteries lack the required energy density, synthetic fuels are much more likely to win than hydrogen. Their safety issues are familiar to everyone and they can take advantage of existing infrastructure.

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