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3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

tenochtitlan.thomaskole.nl

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Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#81

Post by frozenport »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #69
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote: post #53

The Reconquista had finally driven out the Moors from Spain in 1492 - 26 years before Cortez entered Tenochtitlan and began the dismantling of indigenous religion. The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day. Thought Experiment: If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"? Similarly, popular opinion in Israel likes to call Palestinians "Arabs" because they…

Spanish colonialism in the new world was largely an extension of the reconquista abroad. The Spanish crown used wealth from conquered territories to placate and balance the power of Iberian nobility. With the conquest of the canaries and the fall of Granada, the only obvious place to continue that system was North Africa, which would have brought the Spanish crown into direct conflict with the kingdom of Portugal. Th…

Hmm, but was the reconquista really a capitalist venture?

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#82

Post by r14c »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #66
pfannkuchen wrote: post #37

I’m not sure why there isn’t more of an active association between so-called “Hispanics” in North America and the Aztecs and other pre-European cultural groups in the area. The current “Hispanics” are largely descended from the natives, I think? I put “Hispanics” in quotes because it’s pretty weird to be labeled by the language of your conquerors who don’t even control anything in the area anymore.

This seems like a very Anglo and anachronistically racialist take. Catholic colonial empires were characterized by a different ethos than, say, the Protestant English. The former involved a good deal of intermarriage (beginning with Cortes himself) and saw what could be described as cultural transfiguration and fusion. The latter tended to see the natives through the lens of Amalek (ask the Acadians about their exper…

"hispanic" is also more like a general term than an identity that anyone in latinoamerica actually holds. we largely identify with our home regions (which actually correspond pretty closely to pre-colonial cultural groups). "hispanohablante" and "latino" are far more common terms than "hispano", but are not really used except in very broad terms. however, due, in part, to the incomienda system there's a lot of erasure of indigenous and afro contributions to our cultures.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#83

Post by AlotOfReading »

frozenport wrote: post #81
AlotOfReading wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spanish colonialism in the new world was largely an extension of the reconquista abroad. The Spanish crown used wealth from conquered territories to placate and balance the power of Iberian nobility. With the conquest of the canaries and the fall of Granada, the only obvious place to continue that system was North Africa, which would have brought the Spanish crown into direct conflict with the kingdom of Portugal. Th…

Hmm, but was the reconquista really a capitalist venture?

No, it wasn't capitalist as we'd understand it. Spain was very much a medieval kingdom, but there were elements of capitalism in Italian financing that became important towards the mid 15th century and especially during the new world conquests. That's something Wickham has opinions on.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#84

Post by inkyoto »

elnatro wrote: post #72
oskarkk wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank god the Europeans have never killed anyone.

They weren’t doing human sacrifices at that time at least.

Is torturing (and the mutilation of a human body and sometimes death as a frequent outcome of the torture process) and burning people at the stake after an auto-da-fé for not believing in someone else’s mythical deity fundamentally different from human sacrifice?

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#85

Post by MichaelMoser123 »

StepWeiwu wrote: post #35

For anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I finish the first one and I'm half way through the second one and really openend my eyes. Great reads! [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493

there is this song by Randy Newman - the great nations of Europe. I highly recommend it as a history lesson :-( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxNQxu7PWKM

   ...
   Columbus sailed for India
   Found Salvador instead
   He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead
   They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot
   Diphtheria and the flu
   Excuse me great nations coming through!

   Hide your wives and daughters
   Hide your sons as well
   With the great nations of Europe you never can tell

   From where you and I are standing
   At the end of a century
   Europes have sprung up everywhere as even I can see
   But there on the horizon as a possibility
   Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me
   Destroying everything in its path
   From sea to shining sea
   Like the great nations of Europe
   In the sixteenth century

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#86

Post by southernplaces7 »

elnatro wrote: post #24
ks2048 wrote: post #13

I'm reading a book about the Aztecs now (Fifth Sun). The meeting of the Spanish with the Mexica has to be the most epic event in human history. Tragic what was lost. Kudos to the artist for this.

Not to the future victims of the Aztecs.

Hardly made much difference after all. Those saved from being part of a blood sacrifice tribute later died in droves as victims of the new diseases. With hindsight, it's more a question of which sort of death, and the likelihood of it happening would have been preferable.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#87

Post by southernplaces7 »

inkyoto wrote: post #84
elnatro wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren’t doing human sacrifices at that time at least.

Is torturing (and the mutilation of a human body and sometimes death as a frequent outcome of the torture process) and burning people at the stake after an auto-da-fé for not believing in someone else’s mythical deity fundamentally different from human sacrifice?

Not to defend the brutal fanaticism of 15th century catholicism in Europe and the new colonies, but you should read in depth about the sheer scale of Aztec blood sacrifice. It put the Inquisition to shame with its savagery and quantities of victims.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#88

Post by InDubioProRubio »

atombender wrote: post #68
StepWeiwu wrote: post #35

For anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I finish the first one and I'm half way through the second one and really openend my eyes. Great reads! [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493

Also great is The Fall of Civilizations' episode about Tenochtitlan [1]. The podcast is the work of a British historian named Paul M. M. Cooper, who's also published a book derived from the podcast. Each episode is really well researched, incorporating recent discoveries rather than uncritically repeating old tropes. No filler, no theatrics, just really well-told history, backed by real sources. Another excellent his…

Is it politics free? As in, no left rewrite of the noble savage? Because all those tribes that instant-joined the conquistadors still negate all that "utopia destroyed by evil europeans" story.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#89

Post by ecocentrik »

kykeonaut wrote: post #75
ecocentrik wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is tragic. Europeans, with inferior civil engineering skills but superior military weapons, decimate a civilization instead of transferring and absorbing their technology and then take a few hundred years to catch up. It's a tech lesson that some of us still fail to understand.

Turns out that Tlaxcaltecas did most of the work in conquering the Aztecs. They also had vast privileges granted by the Spanish once the conquest was over. For example, they were granted the title of Don. Not as black and white as it might seem.

Yes, the Tlaxcaltecas defeated the Aztecs but they did not succeed in establishing themselves as the dominant power for very long. The Spanish returned with a greater military force and eventually dominated them.

There is admittedly plenty of nuance but my comment was intended to decry the tragedy of conquest, where a conquering party does not recognize the genius of technology implemented by the conquered party and proceeds to destroy that technology, to their own detriment.

Re: 3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire

#90

Post by jdgoesmarching »

InDubioProRubio wrote: post #88
atombender wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also great is The Fall of Civilizations' episode about Tenochtitlan [1]. The podcast is the work of a British historian named Paul M. M. Cooper, who's also published a book derived from the podcast. Each episode is really well researched, incorporating recent discoveries rather than uncritically repeating old tropes. No filler, no theatrics, just really well-told history, backed by real sources. Another excellent his…

Is it politics free? As in, no left rewrite of the noble savage? Because all those tribes that instant-joined the conquistadors still negate all that "utopia destroyed by evil europeans" story.

Despite being relatively conservative, I don’t think The Rest is History would appeal to someone who thinks any telling of history that doesn’t fit a far-right worldview is “political.”

There’s no such thing as politics-free history.

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