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Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

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Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#81

Post by grotorea »

Mindwipe wrote: post #33
ch_123 wrote: post #18

What is Microsoft hoping to accomplish here? Given the rate of adoption of Windows 11, it seems unlikely that a majority of Windows 10 users will replace their hardware between now and October. It also seems to me that the scenario where a majority of PC users are running an unsupported Windows release is likely to create MS more problems than is offset by potential revenue from a hardware refresh cycle. Is there an…

It's pretty obviously two middle managers fighting each other, and senior management is too distracted by AI to worry about core products being on fire.

Is this not important enough for senior management?

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#82

Post by juujian »

t_mann wrote: post #77

Windows 11 looks like the perfect reason to give UNIX-based systems another try. Literally the only thing that's kept me hooked to Windows are the Office apps. They're baked into so many of my workflows, from creating simple graphics to doing my personal finances, and of course plenty of legacy documents that I'd like to continue being able to use. They're really Windows-native I've found, even the official versions…

I can vouch that the OnlyOffice flatpak is worth at least giving a try. Just sending sth important without requiring Microsoft office at all, feels so good. Granted I have a docx template and generated the initial version with pandoc, so I'm not doing any formatting or anything, just back and forth over editing.

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#83

Post by ThatMedicIsASpy »

cesarb wrote: post #42
Daunk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently found out that a friend of mine installed Linux on his own, completely removing his Windows install. And he has yet to "fiddle with the terminal", but still enjoys gaming on Steam and goes on with his daily routine.

One thing I've observed is that people who started using Linux a long time ago (which is my case) tend to slide into the command line, even when there's a perfectly good GUI alternative. Want to rename a file? Why use F2, just open a terminal, cd to the path, and mv the file. Newer users who started with the GUI are less likely to have these habits.

A dropdown terminal with tab autocomplete is faster for navigation on my end

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#84

Post by Avamander »

ch_123 wrote: post #18

What is Microsoft hoping to accomplish here? Given the rate of adoption of Windows 11, it seems unlikely that a majority of Windows 10 users will replace their hardware between now and October. It also seems to me that the scenario where a majority of PC users are running an unsupported Windows release is likely to create MS more problems than is offset by potential revenue from a hardware refresh cycle. Is there an…

What you've said does seem plausible.

But on the other hand there are valid reasons for requiring a minimum baseline for Windows 11.

The TPM requirements for example allow seamless BitLocker (which provides feature-parity with macOS), it allows secure system credential storage (in both consumer and enterprise contexts) and it's also useful for application developers. For example Chrome can defend user data better against malware or provide features like Device Bound Session Credentials (DBSC).

Requiring certain CPU features on the other hand makes it easier to ship better-optimized executables.

The two combined make it possible to provide things like VBS/HVCI, which is a massive leap for Windows security (it's actually considered a security boundary, unlike UAC).

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#85

Post by dbcjv7vhxj »

Alifatisk wrote: post #72
queuebert wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux is in desperate need of a PR campaign. The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows, but no one knows it.

> The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows Give me some names that works out of the box and resembles Windows. I have not tried Linux mint so I don't know how well it works for older people. Ubuntu has been quite good and stable but it has also required fiddling with the terminal. The only one I found to be the best alternative to Windows is ... believe it or not, DeepinOS.

PopOS is more Mac than windows but it's what you're after.

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#86

Post by cesarb »

techjamie wrote: post #28
reginald78 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valorant requires it for anticheat. The purpose is to prevent users from running unauthorized software on the computers they allegedly own. I wouldn't expect many examples to exist yet. You want to wait until almost everyone is on Windows 11 before you get up to those shenanigans.

> The purpose is to prevent users from running unauthorized software on the computers they allegedly own. I've maintained for several years now that the actual corporate wet dream is that they can lock down the average PC architecture/OS to the same degree they have on phones. Because unfortunately, in the phone sector, the market has already shown the majority of users don't care who really owns their devices. My ho…

> My hope is that Linux gets wide enough adoption to prevent that from becoming a feasible option for them in the future.

This has already happened: Linux had wide enough adoption that Microsoft could be convinced to allow alternative operating systems in Secure Boot.

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#87

Post by Avamander »

teeray wrote: post #24

I wonder if there’s any room for a manufacturer that would make an untrusted TPU. Like, one that quacks like a TPU, but has will sing like a bird if you ask for its keys. Violates all of the security guarantees? Yep, you bet. But it does provide some insurance against an industry that might want to use TPUs against us (e.g. DRM).

Such a manufacturer's attestation key would quickly be considered untrustworthy and their TPMs unattested. An unattested TPM will be ignored by any DRM or anti-cheat use-cases.

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#88

Post by vladvasiliu »

wpm wrote: post #52
beart wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, it is not about functionality. It is about polish, integrations, and troubleshooting. If you assume all your devices and software will work on Linux mint out of the box, great. But they won't. Then you end up spending hours trying to get the 5th mouse button to do what it does automatically in Windows. Sure there's a fancy utility on Linux that supports programming that mouse, good luck getting your…

That’s if you can even connect to the internet! Have an older device? It maybe didn’t come with WiFi, or came with an older card you replaced with a better one. Better hope the distro and version of that distro you picked has a kernel with drivers already baked in! Otherwise it’s off to some random git following some random “download this source” and oh wait I’m not connected to the Internet.

Well, latest windows 11 installer doesn't detect my laptop's touchpad nor trackpoint, nor wifi adapter. Sure, I usually have a mouse lying around which works, but not a network adapter. So I had to go look up on the internet how to convince it to go past the installer without insisting on connecting to the internet. Spoiler alert: it was some obscure command in the terminal.

This is a 2020 full-intel, basic enterprise machine, nothing fancy. Worked fully out of the box under Linux, including sleep. The display output was borken for about a year under Windows (wouldn't output 4k@60 without doing a stupid plug-unplug-replug-just-at-the-right-time dance). At one point, installing the latest driver from intel worked, but Windows would helpfully "update" it to an earlier, borked version every other day.

My point is that the current hardware situation seems pretty much hit-and-miss, and figuring that running windows to avoid fiddling with drivers and whatnot isn't such a sure-thing as people in this thread make it out to be.

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#89

Post by ta1243 »

blandenialo wrote: post #63
cesarb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've observed is that people who started using Linux a long time ago (which is my case) tend to slide into the command line, even when there's a perfectly good GUI alternative. Want to rename a file? Why use F2, just open a terminal, cd to the path, and mv the file. Newer users who started with the GUI are less likely to have these habits.

Maybe its just me but I never use the command line unless necessary even tho I used to fidget with it in Ubuntu

When did you start using linux?

Re: Microsoft deletes official Windows 11 CPU/TPM bypass for unsupported PCs

#90

Post by Hawxy »

kjellsbells wrote: post #75
ch_123 wrote: post #18

What is Microsoft hoping to accomplish here? Given the rate of adoption of Windows 11, it seems unlikely that a majority of Windows 10 users will replace their hardware between now and October. It also seems to me that the scenario where a majority of PC users are running an unsupported Windows release is likely to create MS more problems than is offset by potential revenue from a hardware refresh cycle. Is there an…

I would it is a combination of metric-stuffing, land grab, and genuine concern about security. Metric stuffing. Everyone at Microsoft is graded on "impact". All the EVP-types at Microsoft have their eye on boldface jobs, so they need a track record of massive impact. Beimg able to claim that they got W11 from X billion devices to Y is how theyll be judged. Another example is how in Azure, the only metric that matters…

> Security

There's a pretty interesting video from 2023 that goes through much of Microsoft's thoughts around Windows security. It flew under the radar unfortunately:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6ClX-y2AE

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