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Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

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Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#81

Another thing I don't like about this paper is how it wraps real, interesting questions in the larger framework of "existential risk" (which I don't... really think exists) For example: > "Instead of merely(!) aligning a single, powerful AI system, we need to align one or several complex systems that are at risk of collectively drifting away from human interests. This drift can occur even while each individual AI sys…

> we have categorized the ways it goes rogue (monopoly, extortion, etc) and responded adequately.

This objection is a reasonable one. But the point of the paper is that a lot of the ways we have of addressing these systemic problems will probably not work once we're mostly unemployed (or doing make-work). E.g. going on strike, holding a coup, or even organizing politically will become less viable. And once we're a net drag on growth, the government will have incentives to route resources away from us. Right now they have to invest in their human capital to remain competitive.

Is that any more convincing?

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#82

I find this argument a bit weak: for example, regarding human marginalization in states, it's just rehashing basic tropes about government (tldr, technology exacerbates the creation of surveillance states) - "If the creation and interpretation of laws becomes far more complex, it may become much harder for humans to even interact with legislation and the legal system directly" Well duh. That's why as soon as we notic…

> as we notice these things, we pass laws against it

Well, the claim is that that's the sort of thing that will get harder once humans aren't involved in most important decisions.

> which is we created all this stuff, and we can (and have) modified the system to suit human flourishing

Why did we create North Korea? Why did we create WWI? We create horrible traps for ourselves all the time by accident. But so far there has been a floor on how bad things can get (sort of, most of the time), because eventually you run out of people to maintain the horrible system. But soon horrible systems will be more self-sustaining.

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#83

While this is a well written paper, I'm not sure it's really contextualizing realistic risks that may arise from AI. It feels like a lot of "Existential AI Risk" types are divorced from the physical aspects of maintaining software - eg. your model needs hardware to compute, you need cell towers and fiber optic cables to transmit. It feels like they always anthropomorphize AI as some sort of "God". The "AI Powered Sta…

One of the authors here. I don't think we anthropomorphize AI as some sort of God.

Here's a more prosaic analogy that might be helpful. Imagine tomorrow there's a new country full of billions of extremely conscientious, skilled workers. They're willing to work for extremely low wages, and to immigrate to any country and don't even demand political representation.

Various countries start allowing them to immigrate because they are great for the economy. In fact, they're so great for economies and militaries that countries compete to integrate them as quickly and widely as possible.

At first this is great for most of the natives, especially business owners. But the floor for being employable is suddenly really high, and most people end up in a sort of soft retirement. The government, still favoring natives, introduces various make-work and affirmative action programs. But for anything important, it's clear that having a human in the loop is a net drag and they tend to cause problems.

The immigrant population grows endlessly, and while GDP is going through the roof and services are all cheaper than ever, people's savings eventually dwindle as the cost of basic resources like land gets bid up. There are always more lucrative uses for their capital by the immigrants and capital owners compared to the natives. Educating new native humans for important new skills is harder and harder as the economy becomes more sophisticated.

I don't have strong opinions about what happens from here, but the point is that this is a much worse position for the native population to be in than currently.

Does that make sense? Even if this scenario doesn't seem plausible, do you agree that I'm not talking about anything omnipotent, just more competitive?

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#84

While this is a well written paper, I'm not sure it's really contextualizing realistic risks that may arise from AI. It feels like a lot of "Existential AI Risk" types are divorced from the physical aspects of maintaining software - eg. your model needs hardware to compute, you need cell towers and fiber optic cables to transmit. It feels like they always anthropomorphize AI as some sort of "God". The "AI Powered Sta…

> It feels like they always anthropomorphize AI as some sort of "God". It's not like that. It is that. They're playing Pascal's Wager against an imaginary future god. The most maddening part is that the obvious problem with that has been well identified by those circles, dubbed "Pascal's Mugging", but they're still rambling on about "extinction risk" whilst disregarding the very material ongoing issues AI causes. The…

Which material ongoing issues are we ignoring? The paper is mainly talking about how the mundane problems we're already starting to have could lead to an irrecoverable catastrophe, even without any sudden betrayal or omnipotent AGI.

So I think we might be on the same side on this one.

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#85

While this is a well written paper, I'm not sure it's really contextualizing realistic risks that may arise from AI. It feels like a lot of "Existential AI Risk" types are divorced from the physical aspects of maintaining software - eg. your model needs hardware to compute, you need cell towers and fiber optic cables to transmit. It feels like they always anthropomorphize AI as some sort of "God". The "AI Powered Sta…

One of the authors here. I don't think we anthropomorphize AI as some sort of God. Here's a more prosaic analogy that might be helpful. Imagine tomorrow there's a new country full of billions of extremely conscientious, skilled workers. They're willing to work for extremely low wages, and to immigrate to any country and don't even demand political representation. Various countries start allowing them to immigrate bec…

This is a fantastic analogy -- thanks for sharing.

Another way to understand AI in my view is to look at (often smaller) resource rich countries around the world (Oil, Minerals etc). Often the government is more worried about the resource rather than the people that live in the country. The government often does not bother educate them, take good care of them, give them a voice in the future of the country etc. because those citizens are not the ones that pay the bills, or are the main source of GDP output or source of political power etc.

Similarly in an AI heavy economy, unless systems are not designed right governments might start ignoring their citizens. If democracy is not robust or money has a big role in elections the majority voice of humans is likely to matter less and less going forward.

Norway is a good example of resource rich country that still looks out for its citizens. So it should be possible to be resource rich/AI rich and have a happy citizenry. I suppose balancing all moving parts would be difficult.

The way to deal with the risks of AI would be to make AI available to all -- this is my strong belief. There are more risk to AI being walled off to select nations / classes of citizens on grounds of various real / imagined risks. This could create a very privileged class of countries and people that have AI while the others citizens don't / cant. With such huge advantages, AI would wreak greater havoc on the "have-nots". (Over)regulation of AI can have worse consequences under some conditions.

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#86

While this is a well written paper, I'm not sure it's really contextualizing realistic risks that may arise from AI. It feels like a lot of "Existential AI Risk" types are divorced from the physical aspects of maintaining software - eg. your model needs hardware to compute, you need cell towers and fiber optic cables to transmit. It feels like they always anthropomorphize AI as some sort of "God". The "AI Powered Sta…

One of the authors here. I don't think we anthropomorphize AI as some sort of God. Here's a more prosaic analogy that might be helpful. Imagine tomorrow there's a new country full of billions of extremely conscientious, skilled workers. They're willing to work for extremely low wages, and to immigrate to any country and don't even demand political representation. Various countries start allowing them to immigrate bec…

Thanks for co-writing an insightful paper! Something I put together around 2010 on possibilities for what happens from here: https://pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html "This article explores the issue of a "Jobless Recovery" mainly from a heterodox economic perspective. It emphasizes the implications of ideas by Marshall Brain and others that improvements in robotics, automation, design, and voluntary social networks are fundamentally changing the structure of the economic landscape. It outlines towards the end four major alternatives to mainstream economic practice (a basic income, a gift economy, stronger local subsistence economies, and resource-based planning). These alternatives could be used in combination to address what, even as far back as 1964, has been described as a breaking "income-through-jobs link". This link between jobs and income is breaking because of the declining value of most paid human labor relative to capital investments in automation and better design. Or, as is now the case, the value of paid human labor like at some newspapers or universities is also declining relative to the output of voluntary social networks such as for digital content production (like represented by this document). It is suggested that we will need to fundamentally reevaluate our economic theories and practices to adjust to these new realities emerging from exponential trends in technology and society."

Re: Gradual Disempowerment: How Even Incremental AI Progress Poses Existential Risks

#87
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot hangs on what “realistic” means. The world is probabilistic, but people’s use of language often butchers the nuance. One quick way to compare events is to multiply its probability times impact.

India and China almost went to war with each other in 2020. The decision of whether or not to shell Chinese troops and start a war between two nuclear states came down to one brigadier [0] Conventional War between two nuclear states is a MAJOR risk, and has already happened before in 1999 (even if Clinton's State Department didn't want to call it that). These kinds of flashpoints are way more likely to cause sufferin…

> These kinds of flashpoints are way more likely to cause suffering in the near future than some sort of AGI/ASI.

Ok. Then where does your thinking lead?

One good starting question is: what set of mitigation strategies do we pursue for a probabilistic mix of failure modes?

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