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I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

heatpumped.org

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Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#81

Post by Suppafly »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #42
jakedata wrote: post #6

Protip - it's often cheaper to heat with burning buffalo chips than electricity even if your heat pump is super efficient. Do a spreadsheet and maybe get some solar panels to feed the new beast. Otherwise you may just need to bask in the glow of self satisfaction and enjoy not poisoning yourself with VOCs and CO. I'm not subscribing to your newsletter...

In many places of the world winter means no or barely any sun. Panels won't help.

>In many places of the world winter means no or barely any sun. Panels won't help.

Good thing those places aren't where the vast majority of the population is located. Your point is basically unrelated to the conversation being had.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#82

Post by true_religion »

marcus0x62 wrote: post #8
NotAnOtter wrote: post #5

Def not making an account on whatever random website heatpumped.org is. Owner of the site needs to stop pretending their the WSJ. Anyways the phrasing of the non-blocked article seems to imply the title is a red herring, and their bill actually went down. I'll never know though.

If you look at the PGE bill that is visible before article gets cut off, his electricity use went way up year over year and his natural gas use went down. I'm guessing he got an electric heat pump to replace his gas furnace, and just pays a lot more per kWh for electricity than he was paying per therm or cuft or whatever of natural gas.

He said this himself in the article.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#83

Post by Suppafly »

anthony_d wrote: post #74
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a subsidy, but a hold back from taxation. It’s usually in these country’s national security interests, let alone environmental interest, to push away from gas and oil given that they are often imported from hostile nations. America doesn’t really have that same problem, but Denmark and China do.

> It’s not a subsidy, but a hold back from taxation. I like pedantry as much as the next person but that feels like a pointless distinction here.

>I like pedantry as much as the next person but that feels like a pointless distinction here.

One is a payment you receive, the other is a bill you don't receive. They can be similar to your bottom line, but they are definitely not the same thing especially if there is a middle area where you wouldn't have paid the extra tax anyway, so you aren't even getting an advantage.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#84

Post by loeg »

rayiner wrote: post #10

I don’t know where this person is, but electricity is wildly expensive in many places. On a cold day, a good heat pump might give you say a COP of 2. So with 5 kW, you get out 10 kW of heat, or 35,000 BTU/hour. In say MA, at $0.25 per kWh retail, that’s $1.25/hour. In Boston, natural gas costs $1.5/therm, which is 100,000 BTUs. With a 96% efficient condensing boiler, you’re looking at $0.55/hour for the same 35,000 B…

> To be comparable to natural gas, you need electricity to be about $0.10 per kWh retail. That’s basically the PNW, the mountain west, and parts of the Deep South.

I think Chicago is pretty close? Abundant nuclear is great.

In the Seattle area we're up to $0.13-0.14/kWh, but also rarely see the kinds of cold temperatures that lead to low COP figures.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#85

Post by Suppafly »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60
blitzar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that electricity should decrease in cost over time On the back of decades of experience - year in, year out the only constant is that utility bills go up. This time it might be different, but I doubt it.

Inflation is a given, but one can increase faster than the other. Electricity can be generated in many different ways, so has flexibility, while natural gas must be piped in.

The flip side of that is that the natural gas infrastructure is pretty well established and isn't likely to increase in cost drastically unless the supply starts running out. If anything we should start using natural gas instead of coal for power plants and raise the residential cost of it while lowering the cost of electricity, but I'm sure there are a bunch of incentives against doing that.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#86

Post by nottorp »

Suppafly wrote: post #83
anthony_d wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not a subsidy, but a hold back from taxation. I like pedantry as much as the next person but that feels like a pointless distinction here.

>I like pedantry as much as the next person but that feels like a pointless distinction here. One is a payment you receive, the other is a bill you don't receive. They can be similar to your bottom line, but they are definitely not the same thing especially if there is a middle area where you wouldn't have paid the extra tax anyway, so you aren't even getting an advantage.

I don't think the OP is talking about an income like tax but a tax built into every kWh you pay for...

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#87

Post by Chrisbo33 »

Just had a heat pump installed, cost £7430 with £7500 kindly donated by the government. House was built in the 1930's. No Cavity walls, used most of the old 1980's radiators, replaced 4 out of 18. Kept the hot water tank. Disconnected the mains gas..... Guess what? Just had our first energy bill - £192 CHEAPER than the previous equivalent quarter last year when we were using our gas boiler. AND, the house is so much more warm. So warm, we now have the system thermostat on its lowest setting. Hot water supply is regular and heats in 30 mins after a couple of (very hot) baths.

So much nonsense and misinformation being spread these days about heat pumps. Gas is dead, don't listen to the politicians and vested interests. Get a reputable firm to install and enjoy a nice warm house.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#88

Post by tzs »

rayiner wrote: post #10

I don’t know where this person is, but electricity is wildly expensive in many places. On a cold day, a good heat pump might give you say a COP of 2. So with 5 kW, you get out 10 kW of heat, or 35,000 BTU/hour. In say MA, at $0.25 per kWh retail, that’s $1.25/hour. In Boston, natural gas costs $1.5/therm, which is 100,000 BTUs. With a 96% efficient condensing boiler, you’re looking at $0.55/hour for the same 35,000 B…

> To be comparable to natural gas, you need electricity to be about $0.10 per kWh retail. That’s basically the PNW, the mountain west, and parts of the Deep South.

Shouldn't that also take into account the variations in natural gas prices?

For example electricity in Delaware is more expensive than electricity in Washington, but so is natural gas by about the same percentage. Same when comparing Kansas to Washington.

Using natural gas rates by state from here [1] and electricity rates by state from here [2], here are the states where the ratio of natural gas price to electricity price is higher than that of Oregon and so should be places where you have the best chance to same money switching from gas to electric. The second column is the price ratio.

  Georgia         3.3
  Oklahoma        3.2
  Ohio            3.1
  Florida         2.9
  West Virginia   2.9
  Texas           2.7
  Kentucky        2.6
  Louisiana       2.5
  Delaware        2.4
  Missouri        2.3
  Wyoming         2.3
  Mississippi     2.3
  Washington      2.2
  Kansas          2.2
  North Dakota    2.2
  Arizona         2.2
  North Carolina  2.1
  Arkansas        2.1
  Alabama         2.0
  South Carolina  1.9
  Virginia        1.9
  Indiana         1.9
  Oregon          1.9
[1] https://www.chooseenergy.com/data-center/natural-gas-rates-b...

[2] https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#89

Post by dangus »

Suppafly wrote: post #85
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inflation is a given, but one can increase faster than the other. Electricity can be generated in many different ways, so has flexibility, while natural gas must be piped in.

The flip side of that is that the natural gas infrastructure is pretty well established and isn't likely to increase in cost drastically unless the supply starts running out. If anything we should start using natural gas instead of coal for power plants and raise the residential cost of it while lowering the cost of electricity, but I'm sure there are a bunch of incentives against doing that.

You could say the same thing about electricity infrastructure, pretty well established and unlikely to increase in cost drastically.

Except with electricity, the likelihood of supply running out is a lot lower because it has a diverse set of generation options, which includes natural gas.

On top of that, you can generate your own electricity at home and store it in batteries (obviously, only if you have a roof you own), and the cost of doing that has only been decreasing.

Re: I got a heat pump and my energy bill went up

#90

Post by buo »

NotAnOtter wrote: post #75
tommiegannert wrote: post #28

Transparency is great, but let's not forget that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables. We only have one nice planet to live on, and there are others who want to keep being able to live comfortably on it, I've heard. Oil/gas is a potent drug that is difficult to vane off of. (Arguably solar/battery has the same problem as oil: let's dig and refine stuff from the ground, and not care ab…

>the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables That argument won't work in practice though. You have to make it make financial sense to each and every individual to encourage them to switch, "Do it because it's the right thing to do" is a tall order when people are already on a tight budget. I'm sure the new US president will assist in this matter.

> to each and every individual

Not to each one. I'm willing to pay more (within my means and within reason) if it pollutes less and/or produces less CO2.

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