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Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

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Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#81
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's somewhat explained near the end of the article. Sex in bees (and ants) is weird. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system Humans use XY system, so we share 50% of your genes with your children, parents and siblings (in average). Bees and ants use X0 system. A female bee share 50% of your genes with their own daughters, 75% with their mother and 75% with their female parents and 75% with their femal…

> 75% with their mother and 75% with their female parents Are these different things for bees?

Sorry, cut&paste typo.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#82
post #43

I don't understand why any "why" question in evolutionary biology is ever satisfied with a "survival of the fittest" truism. Any evolutionary explanation you give me is also falsified by the existence of another species with a different/opposite trait. Whatever explanation you give for a bee's barbed stinger is falsified by the wasp's non-barbed one. Also doesn't answer other questions, such as why didn't bees evolve…

women go to the bathroom together because if you squat to pee in the tall grass of the savannah you need somebody to lookout for predators

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#83
post #64
post #43

I don't understand why any "why" question in evolutionary biology is ever satisfied with a "survival of the fittest" truism. Any evolutionary explanation you give me is also falsified by the existence of another species with a different/opposite trait. Whatever explanation you give for a bee's barbed stinger is falsified by the wasp's non-barbed one. Also doesn't answer other questions, such as why didn't bees evolve…

Love this comment. It highlights a major misunderstanding of biology that many people who didn't study it in depth have: that every, or most features of living beings do not have an "evolutionary explanation." T-rex arms aren't short so they can open flowers - they just happen to be small because that's the type of creature that happened to survive after a lot of changes.

Maybe this explains why humans are snoring? It just wasn't / isn't evolutionary important.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#84
post #43

I don't understand why any "why" question in evolutionary biology is ever satisfied with a "survival of the fittest" truism. Any evolutionary explanation you give me is also falsified by the existence of another species with a different/opposite trait. Whatever explanation you give for a bee's barbed stinger is falsified by the wasp's non-barbed one. Also doesn't answer other questions, such as why didn't bees evolve…

The main problem I see with how some popular science journalists approach evolutionary biology is that they always think from the perspective of the individual, as opposed to the group.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#85
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your answer is "it's a random mutation" then that settles the "why" question permanently. Why all this idle speculation about bee's stingers, then? It was a random mutation, and it survived, done.

It was random, and it survived . Every single part of an organism goes through a recombination/mutation process countless times, the stinger evolved to be what it is today over a very long time and it's cool to study why it ended up the way it did. Tells us about their environment and history and evolutionary pressures, survival is a result of the random traits being successful in their context in specific ways.

Still doesn’t explain why other species in the same context survived without it or with an opposite trait.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#86
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love this comment. It highlights a major misunderstanding of biology that many people who didn't study it in depth have: that every, or most features of living beings do not have an "evolutionary explanation." T-rex arms aren't short so they can open flowers - they just happen to be small because that's the type of creature that happened to survive after a lot of changes.

Maybe this explains why humans are snoring? It just wasn't / isn't evolutionary important.

Well, the explanation I heard is that snoring provided protection during sleeping to scare away predators. I don't know the source for this theory, so take it with a grain of salt :)

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#87
post #79
post #43

I don't understand why any "why" question in evolutionary biology is ever satisfied with a "survival of the fittest" truism. Any evolutionary explanation you give me is also falsified by the existence of another species with a different/opposite trait. Whatever explanation you give for a bee's barbed stinger is falsified by the wasp's non-barbed one. Also doesn't answer other questions, such as why didn't bees evolve…

What kind of explanations are you looking for? Your idea is that there should be some sort of common explanations of why. I guess because these are theories and best guess based on the evidence. There are many unknowns but that doesn't mean we should disregard what we know.

If someone simply asked what are the advantages of bees barbed stingers over wasps non barbed ones, that would be an interesting question. But if someone asks “why” and then proceeds to give a circular logic explanation (it survived because it is fit because it survived) that is unprovable, I find that to be silly idle speculation.

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this explains why humans are snoring? It just wasn't / isn't evolutionary important.

Well, the explanation I heard is that snoring provided protection during sleeping to scare away predators. I don't know the source for this theory, so take it with a grain of salt :)

I heard that too, but it doesn't sound likely. If I was sleeping and there was a predator passing by, I would prefer it didn't notice me... :)

Re: Why do bees die when they sting you? (2021)

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it circular to argue why one species would do better in an environment than another based on phenotype and the physical interactions it enables? It’s all relative to other species. As long as you understand that, there is no logical fallacy. I do very much appreciate the focus on informal logic though.

Because you could encounter absolutely any organism and make the same argument. There is no configuration of organism that would cause you to say "huh, I guess Survival doesn't depend on Fitness after all!" Because it takes the observation of Survival and uses it to infer Fitness, at the same time as saying that Fitness confers Survival.

>Because you could encounter absolutely any organism and make the same argument.

That's a function of the explanation being an extremely good explanation. It rises to the top precisely because it has explanatory power all across nature without evident counter-example.

>There is no configuration of organism that would cause you to say "huh, I guess Survival doesn't depend on Fitness after all!"

This is where the argument falls apart. For starters, species go extinct all the time for reasons tied to their evolutionary trajectory. And there are species still living that unfortunately seem very imperfectly adapted to their constraints and likely to go extinct without a run of good luck or human intervention (e.g. pandas). We seem perfectly capable of recognizing when such species are "on the ropes". Additionally there are relative advantages we can clearly observe from animals in overlapping niches, and we can marvel at the effectiveness of adaptations in ways that don't involve circular assumptions (e.g. algae's capability for efficient growth is astonishing and without equal on the planet).

And, we could surely conceive of preposterous examples that defy expectations (e.g. the other commenter's example of mice with 100ft teeth).

It probably feels like it proves too much, because it's confirmed over and over again in nature everywhere, at all times. But in an alternate world where that wasn't the case, counter-examples would abound (such as the mouse with 100ft teeth). So re-iterating the core lesson about the role of natural selection is not just a circular assumption, it's the culmination of hard earned, accumulated evidence, ready at any moment to be falsified.

The honeybee is a perfect example, because the stinger does pose a real question about how we understand it's relation to fitness, and it requires delving into all kinds of complicated dynamics about genetically related drones are to the queen, the role of the sacrifice in supporting the hive and so-on. If we didn't have explanations like those, it would indeed pose a problem with explanations that presume fitness.

That's a real payoff from being alert to the need to have robust explanations; I don't think anyone is just saying "well it's fitness" and calling it a day so much as they're honoring the explanatory power of a well confirmed theory.

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