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Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

arstechnica.com

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Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#81

Post by danaris »

skissane wrote: post #79
danaris wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are speaking of legality, not terminology. The terminology is universal, as it is simply for talking about What People Are Doing, not What The Law Says. Many people will—and do, and this is why I'm taking pains to point it out—confuse and conflate CSAM and child pornography, and also the terminology and the law. That doesn't change anything about what I've said. Fundamentally, there are two basic reasons we outla…

> The terminology is universal Is it? The US Department of Homeland Security defines "CSAM" as including generative AI images: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/24_0408_k2p_... So does the FBI: https://www.ic3.gov/PSA/2024/PSA240329 You want to define the "CSAM" more narrowly, so as to exclude those images. I'm not aware of any "official" definition, but arguably something hosted on a US federal governm…

Sorry, I spoke imprecisely.

The terminology is used outside of legal contexts in ways that transcend borders. To the best of my knowledge, the terms "CSAM" and "CSEM" were coined outside of legal contexts, for the purposes I described above.

That they are used in legal contexts in particular jurisdictions with particular definitions that do not exactly match what I have described does not change what I have described for general usage.

By the very nature of the English language, which has no formal administering body, there is no such thing as an "official definition" of a word in common usage; even dictionaries are descriptive, not normative. It is possible that my experience is not universal; however, I have had enough exposure to the term in a variety of contexts that I am comfortable stating that, at least for a large number of Anglophone people, my description of the situation would read as accurate.

YMMV, void where prohibited, no warranty is expressed or implied, etc.

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#82

Post by loeg »

6ix8igth wrote: post #80
loeg wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t feel remotely impeded by this and neither do most other people. No one needs to generate CSAM.

You don't feel impeded right now, but let enough stupid stuff like this through and you'll slowly drip feed your rights away. I explained in my post above why this is bad - if you make it a crime to do a simple thing, it becomes very easy to falsely accuse a person of a crime, and act in other authoritarian ways. I already have personal experience facing strong arm measures under the pretext of "protecting the kids".…

Nah, there’s no slippery slope here. Don’t generate CSAM.

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#83

Post by 6ix8igth »

loeg wrote: post #82
6ix8igth wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't feel impeded right now, but let enough stupid stuff like this through and you'll slowly drip feed your rights away. I explained in my post above why this is bad - if you make it a crime to do a simple thing, it becomes very easy to falsely accuse a person of a crime, and act in other authoritarian ways. I already have personal experience facing strong arm measures under the pretext of "protecting the kids".…

Nah, there’s no slippery slope here. Don’t generate CSAM.

You keep fixating on one half of my point (this law shouldn't exist) while completely ignoring and not addressing the rational (it does basically nothing to help children at great cost to your rights). In no way am I endorsing generating child porn, but this is a retarded way to try and prevent that.

This isn't a "slippery slope" argument, the specific law we are discussing is already an example of stepping too far.

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#84

Post by skissane »

danaris wrote: post #81
skissane wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The terminology is universal Is it? The US Department of Homeland Security defines "CSAM" as including generative AI images: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/24_0408_k2p_... So does the FBI: https://www.ic3.gov/PSA/2024/PSA240329 You want to define the "CSAM" more narrowly, so as to exclude those images. I'm not aware of any "official" definition, but arguably something hosted on a US federal governm…

Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. The terminology is used outside of legal contexts in ways that transcend borders. To the best of my knowledge, the terms "CSAM" and "CSEM" were coined outside of legal contexts, for the purposes I described above. That they are used in legal contexts in particular jurisdictions with particular definitions that do not exactly match what I have described does not change what I have described…

> The terminology is used outside of legal contexts in ways that transcend borders.

To clarify, the FBI and DHS publications I cited are not actually using the term in a "legal context", strictly speaking. Presently, US federal criminal law does not use the term CSAM; if the FBI or DHS arrest someone for "CSAM", they might use that term in a press release describing the arrest, but the formal criminal charges will be expressed without using it.

> To the best of my knowledge, the terms "CSAM" and "CSEM" were coined outside of legal contexts, for the purposes I described above.

This is where I doubt you – did the people who originally coined the term "CSAM" intend to exclude AI-generated images from the term's scope? You are assuming they did, but I'm not convinced you are right. I suspect you may be projecting your own views about how the term should be defined on to the people who originated it.

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#85

Post by danaris »

skissane wrote: post #84
danaris wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. The terminology is used outside of legal contexts in ways that transcend borders. To the best of my knowledge, the terms "CSAM" and "CSEM" were coined outside of legal contexts, for the purposes I described above. That they are used in legal contexts in particular jurisdictions with particular definitions that do not exactly match what I have described does not change what I have described…

> The terminology is used outside of legal contexts in ways that transcend borders. To clarify, the FBI and DHS publications I cited are not actually using the term in a "legal context", strictly speaking. Presently, US federal criminal law does not use the term CSAM; if the FBI or DHS arrest someone for "CSAM", they might use that term in a press release describing the arrest, but the formal criminal charges will be…

> This is where I doubt you – did the people who originally coined the term "CSAM" intend to exclude AI-generated images from the term's scope? You are assuming they did, but I'm not convinced you are right. I suspect you may be projecting your own views about how the term should be defined on to the people who originated it.

Knowing, as I do, the purpose (or at least the stated purpose) of coining the term—which, as I have very clearly stated, was to differentiate between situations where an actual real-life child is involved, vs those where none is: Yes, I am very confident that their intent would exclude AI-generated images. I can't see how any other conclusion could be drawn from what I've already said.

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#86

Post by spwa4 »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #78
spwa4 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is the dream for the supposed protectors of children. You see, just because child porn production stops, does not mean those children disappear. Usually, of course, they go into youth services (in practice most don't even make it to the front door and run away to resume the child abuse, but let's ignore that). That is how the situation of those children changes when CSAM is persecuted. From the situation the…

Yea, the nonprofit for commercially sexually abused children that I volunteer at is a much better way to know about reality. But conspiracies are a comforting way to understand why things can't just be fixed, sure.

I have experienced child services from the inside, including talking to quite a few kids caught, because caught is the correct word, in "that world". There was not a SINGLE example of one that appreciated the change, and one killed himself. All were essentially locked up. All were aggressive and for every last one the fault was the governments, in 2 cases teachers actively involved in sending students to "that world". Needless to say, these teachers, one who was caught red handed (by the press, no police involvement obviously), were entirely free, and the victims were locked up. ALL of these children had stories of police officers involved in "that world", none of whom had seen any punishment.

I also can absolutely guarantee you: child services CANNOT protect a child from drugs. Child services CANNOT protect a child from prostitution or sex. Child services CANNOT protect a child from violence, whether they are violent themselves or victim. For the same reason the sea cannot protect fish from water. Sex, drugs and violence are pervasive in even the youngest groups in child services, with people either pretending they're not seeing it or in bad cases participating.

There is not a doubt in my mind that had the police instead done nothing at all the outcome for all those children would have been better off, not worse. Every last one.

Oh and not because their situation was great and didn't damage them or any bullshit like that. They would have been better off because child services was orders of magnitude worse, didn't help, and DID fuck up any chance at a future they had (a few, including me, went normally to school. Went, past tense, as in child services made that utterly impossible. Often kid were sent to "idiot-schools" because that got the institution more money, almost always the school or someone at school was the one positive influence in their lives and child services ... just ... doesn't ... care, about such things, brutally and violently changing the school. The kid that later committed suicide beat up the guard of BOTH the idiot school AND hit the "guard" at his previous school and after that got the principal to accept him back, by essentially staying, and sleeping, in the waiting chairs at his office for 3 straight days until he was allowed to talk, then biking to school for 3 hours every day)

Re: Under new law, cops bust famous cartoonist for AI-generated CSAM

#87

Post by Ferret7446 »

9rx wrote: post #44
defrost wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you would be hard-pressed to prove that any model trained on internet scrapes definitively wasn't trained on any CSAM whatsoever. I'd be hard pressed to prove that you definitely hadn't killed anybody ever. Legally if it's asserted that these images are criminal because they are the result of being the product of an LLM trained on sources that contained CSAM then the requirement would be to prove that asser…

> Legally if it's asserted that these images are criminal because they are the result of being the product of an LLM trained on sources that contained CSAM then the requirement would be to prove that assertion. Legally, possession of CSAM is against the law because there is an assumption that possession proves contribution to market demand, with an understanding that demand incentives production of supply, meaning th…

Such an assumption is wrong in a world with AI generated CSAM. Why would suppliers go through the risk/cost of producing "actual" CSAM if they could AI generate it? Especially if the demand is for AI generated CSAM (someone who has AI generated CSAM is stimulating demand for AI generated CSAM by definition).

Even for regular porn, which is far lower risk/cost, AI generation is becoming preferable (as with most technologies, the leading use case for AI is porn).

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